The achilles heel of the LDS critic

[Bloodnut]

"Mormons are not Christians."

How does one define "Christianity"? Is it Catholicism, Baptist doctrine, Pentecostalism, Evangelicalism, etc? Evangelicals have also strayed from traditional historic Christianity in numerous ways. But they are now considered Christians; even though they were also deemed "cults" by the orthodox Christians. The irony and humor comes into play when we realize that the former "cult" which include Protestant Christians, are the ones leading the march against all other "deviant" forms of Christianity. At what point can one "deviate" and no longer be called a Christian?

Who gets to decide when exactly that line has been crossed? And why?

[themuzicman]

Well, there are essential doctrines, and non-essential doctrines.

The essential doctrines include:

Trinitarian God
Salvation by grace through faith in Christ, who died on a cross as atonement for our sins
Bodily resurrection

Michael

[Faramir]

Well, there are essential doctrines, and non-essential doctrines.

The essential doctrines include:

Trinitarian God
Salvation by grace through faith in Christ, who died on a cross as atonement for our sins
Bodily resurrection

Michael

:yeahthat: (Hey muz we agree on something)

I would like to add not just Trinitarian, but a traditional orthodox view of the Trinitarian (i.e. not a Mormon or Modalist veiw of the Trinity).

[Xavier]

Seems most folks work their way from here:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Interesting - hyperpreterists make the same argument, and I was just telling one the other day how much more and more they are sounding like LDS apologists.

[themuzicman]

(Plus the Nicene/Constantiople creed)

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Catholics and Protestants agree on a vast majority of the major doctrines and if you talk to them you'll get a description of largely the same G_d.

If you talk to a Mormon you get a G_d that has brothers and sisters, and a Jesus who is the brother of Satan.

In short, the very material of the Christian G_d is fundamentally different than the Mormon god.

[Trout]

Kevin,

Would you consider me to be a Mormon?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Kevin,

Would you consider me to be a Mormon?

Awesome.

If they are all the same why is it when I tell a Mormon that I believe Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life that they still pester me about converting?

[technomage]

"Mormons are not Christians."

How does one define "Christianity"? Is it Catholicism, Baptist doctrine, Pentecostalism, Evangelicalism, etc? Evangelicals have also strayed from traditional historic Christianity in numerous ways. But they are now considered Christians; even though they were also deemed "cults" by the orthodox Christians. The irony and humor comes into play when we realize that the former "cult" which include Protestant Christians, are the ones leading the march against all other "deviant" forms of Christianity. At what point can one "deviate" and no longer be called a Christian?

Who gets to decide when exactly that line has been crossed? And why?

Not al Mormon critics trip on this particular issue: I consider Mormons to be Christians, but abberant or heterodox Christian. Of course, I think all Christians are substantially wrong ... but frankly, I see no major harm coming either from mainstream Christianity or many of the heterodox branches (such as most branches of Mormonism).

My major criticism of Mormonism is the same one I have of mainstream Christianity: Christians make spiritual and moral claims based on a document (or multiple documents) that is supposedly "the Truth," but is demonstrably erroneous. That being said, however, most Christians (mainstream or not) that I have met are good folks, many of whom I admire.

There is one branch of Mormonism that I do object to as causing substantive harm, and that's the schismatic branch that still practices polygamy. Your church booted these folks to the road for a good reason ... frankly, polygamy is one of my reasons for criticizing Joe Smith.

Justin

[Alexander's Mom]

The reason Mormons are not considered to be Christians is because they deny that the Bible is the unequivocal word of God. They tell us that it is incomplete, that in some places it is downright wrong. Now, tell me that the Bible is inaccurate and incomplete in its doctrine, then claim Christianity.

[Trout]

My major criticism of Mormonism is the same one I have of mainstream Christianity: Christians make spiritual and moral claims based on a document (or multiple documents) that is supposedly "the Truth," but is demonstrably erroneous. That being said, however, most Christians (mainstream or not) that I have met are good folks, many of whom I admire.


Justin

Interesting also that you are an adherent to a belief system that is "demonstrably erroneous" and yet you continue to criticize us Christians.

[technomage]

Interesting also that you are an adherent to a belief system that is "demonstrably erroneous" and yet you continue to criticize us Christians.

I don't make claims on the basis that my system is inspired by the Divine: I make claims on the basis that my system is human invented, of recent origin (circa 1949-1951), adaptable, and relevant for 21 century living for those who choose it. Not all of us adhere to the "World's Oldest Religion" crap that some of the Fluff-Bunnies spout.

Justin

[Trout]

I don't make claims on the basis that my system is inspired by the Divine: I make claims on the basis that my system is human invented, of recent origin (circa 1949-1951), adaptable, and relevant for 21 century living for those who choose it. Not all of us adhere to the "World's Oldest Religion" crap that some of the Fluff-Bunnies spout.

Justin

And none of your claims make your belief system true.

[technomage]

And none of your claims make your belief system true.

Nope. But by the same token, your belief system is foundationally flawed because of the basis of its claims.

Trout, it's like this: I don't think I've seen much in the way of anti-Mormon criticism from mainstream Christianity that could not be "retroactively applied." Criticisms based on creed, scripture, or history are all criticisms that mainstream Christianity is equally vulnerable to.

There is one major difference between Wiccan and Christian claims: we don't claim that we're exclusively right. The only thing we claim is that we seem to have something that works.*

Justin

* Of course, there probably are Wiccans out there who do claim to be exclusively right. Being Wiccan is not inocculation from making stupid claims.