Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Secular Morality?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    show us where free will made its entrance in the evolution of, and how it fits together with, the otherwise determined nature of physical law.
    It is insane to consider these sort of demands to be reasonable.

    After such demands the only response that makes any sense is bewildered disbelief.

    It as akin to asking for the entire evolutionary heritage of a modern species, the rabbit hole is deep as can be, you ask for the abyss, and the abyss you will receive.
    Last edited by Pytharchimedes; 04-18-2015, 11:22 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      I'm sorry Tass, were you grunting again?


      I’m still waiting for your counter argument to ‘determinism’ - resorting to a childish insult does not constitute an argument.

      To repeat: given the state of the universe at one time, it is clear that it is determined by a complete set of natural laws and, given that we are a part of the natural universe and interact with other objects in it, determinism must hold for us as well. To argue otherwise is special pleading, i.e. a fallacy.

      If you want to claim that somehow human behaviour is exempted and that somehow we have actual free-will (as opposed to the illusion of it) you must provide credible evidence to support your claim. Otherwise: “that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence” – Hitchens.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post


        I’m still waiting for your counter argument to ‘determinism’ - resorting to a childish insult does not constitute an argument.

        To repeat: given the state of the universe at one time, it is clear that it is determined by a complete set of natural laws and, given that we are a part of the natural universe and interact with other objects in it, determinism must hold for us as well. To argue otherwise is special pleading, i.e. a fallacy.

        If you want to claim that somehow human behaviour is exempted and that somehow we have actual free-will (as opposed to the illusion of it) you must provide credible evidence to support your claim. Otherwise: “that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence” – Hitchens.
        mad_hatter.jpg

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
          It is insane to consider these sort of demands to be reasonable.

          After such demands the only response that makes any sense is bewildered disbelief.

          It as akin to asking for the entire evolutionary heritage of a modern species, the rabbit hole is deep as can be, you ask for the abyss, and the abyss you will receive.
          On the contrary it is the obvious question to ask; to quote Hawking: “If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behaviour automatic and within the realm of scientific law? "Although we feel that we can chose what we do, our understanding of our molecular basis shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as everything else in the universe”. To make an exception for the human animal, which is what religion does based upon unsubstantiated ‘revelation’, is the fallacy of ‘special pleading’.

          And, BTW your Mad Hatter response is about as meaningful as seer’s “grunting” response, i.e not at all. It indicates an inability to counter the argument.
          Last edited by Tassman; 04-19-2015, 12:17 AM.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            And, BTW your Mad Hatter response is about as meaningful as seer’s “grunting” response, i.e not at all. It indicates an inability to counter the argument.
            I just thought it was funny.

            alice.jpg

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
              I just thought it was funny.
              Enough vino for you! It's not funny nor is it relevant to the thread.

              Now try to get back on track and respond to the question: “If", according to Hawking, "we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behaviour automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Although we feel that we can chose what we do, our understanding of our molecular basis shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as everything else in the universe”. To make an exception for the human animal, which is what religion does based upon unsubstantiated ‘revelation’, is the fallacy of ‘special pleading’.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                “If", according to Hawking, "we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behaviour automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Although we feel that we can chose what we do, our understanding of our molecular basis shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as everything else in the universe”. To make an exception for the human animal, which is what religion does based upon unsubstantiated ‘revelation’, is the fallacy of ‘special pleading’.
                I am Commander Shepard.



                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Enough vino for you!
                Indeed.
                Last edited by Pytharchimedes; 04-19-2015, 03:15 AM.

                Comment


                • Edited by a Moderator

                  intrstng

                  Moderated By: DesertBerean

                  Sorry, no links to other websites allowed per the Campus Decorum rules on advertising. You may, of course, post it in your signature line.

                  ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                  Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                  Last edited by DesertBerean; 04-19-2015, 05:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post


                    I’m still waiting for your counter argument to ‘determinism’ - resorting to a childish insult does not constitute an argument.

                    To repeat: given the state of the universe at one time, it is clear that it is determined by a complete set of natural laws and, given that we are a part of the natural universe and interact with other objects in it, determinism must hold for us as well. To argue otherwise is special pleading, i.e. a fallacy.

                    If you want to claim that somehow human behaviour is exempted and that somehow we have actual free-will (as opposed to the illusion of it) you must provide credible evidence to support your claim. Otherwise: “that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence” – Hitchens.
                    Tass, it is not a childish insult. If determinism is true then your rantings are no more meaningful than the grunts of an ape. An ape has no control over what he thinks or spits out and neither do you.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      An ape has no control over what he thinks or spits out and neither do you.
                      Speak for yerself. You literally blow your own foot off with this statement. It is rather gruesome.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Revelation is not emperical evidence seer, it is not something that exists outside of the mind that can be seen and tested.
                        No Jim, God exists outside of the mind and can be known. That is the story of Scripture, God communicating with man. Person to person, like any other inter personal relationship.


                        Again, that there is a such thing as a soul, whether one embraces it as a reality or not, is an assertion, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a soul.
                        Really? There is no such thing as a soul? Can you prove that?

                        We may act as if we are more than determined, just as do you, more than biological machines, but that is what is meant by the illusion of free will, and unless you can come up with evidence supporting its existence, refuting the empirical evidence to the contrary, then you can continue to believe in a rational soul not ruled by the laws of physics, but again, your belief alone is a losing argument.
                        Then human rationality, your rationality, is also an illusion if determinism is true (for the reasons I already explained). Are you willing to admit that your rationality is an illusion Jim?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                          Speak for yerself. You literally blow your own foot off with this statement. It is rather gruesome.
                          ?????
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            No Jim, God exists outside of the mind and can be known. That is the story of Scripture, God communicating with man. Person to person, like any other inter personal relationship.
                            Again you provide nothing but non empirical assertions in support of your argument seer. All religions and myths are revelatory by nature, but for you none are true accepting the one you choose to believe. Do you not understand that Muslims believe also that their particular brand of truth is revealed to them by Allah? If you happened to have been born into that culture the chances are that you too would believe in that revealed truth rather than the one you hold to now.



                            Really? There is no such thing as a soul? Can you prove that?
                            In a debate it is not my job to disprove an unfounded assertion, its your job to prove it. You have shown that you are unable to do that, and that indeed it is an immpossible task. The only evidence that you can provide for the souls existence is your belief in its existence, which as you know is not empirical evidence at all. As you also know, people have always held to beliefs that in the end have had no basis in reality.


                            Then human rationality, your rationality, is also an illusion if determinism is true (for the reasons I already explained). Are you willing to admit that your rationality is an illusion Jim?
                            Rationality is not an illusion if the mind is in agreement with the empirical evidence. Irrationality is when ones mind or beliefs are not in harmony with the empirical nature of his environment.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                              It is insane to consider these sort of demands to be reasonable.

                              After such demands the only response that makes any sense is bewildered disbelief.

                              It as akin to asking for the entire evolutionary heritage of a modern species, the rabbit hole is deep as can be, you ask for the abyss, and the abyss you will receive.
                              What would be insane is that I should believe that I would actually get an answer to the question, which I do not believe.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Again you provide nothing but non empirical assertions in support of your argument seer. All religions and myths are revelatory by nature, but for you none are true accepting the one you choose to believe. Do you not understand that Muslims believe also that their particular brand of truth is revealed to them by Allah? If you happened to have been born into that culture the chances are that you too would believe in that revealed truth rather than the one you hold to now.
                                Jim your objection is immaterial to the point. If Christianity or Islam is true it is not simply something that exists inside the mind. Of course, in reality, everything we know, in one sense only exists inside our particular minds.



                                In a debate it is not my job to disprove an unfounded assertion, its your job to prove it. You have shown that you are unable to do that, and that indeed it is an immpossible task. The only evidence that you can provide for the souls existence is your belief in its existence, which as you know is not empirical evidence at all. As you also know, people have always held to beliefs that in the end have had no basis in reality.
                                Again Jim, why is your limited understanding or experience the standard for what is real or possible? The soul by it very nature would not be something that could be empirically shown since it is not material. That fact however does not disprove it.

                                Rationality is not an illusion if the mind is in agreement with the empirical evidence. Irrationality is when ones mind or beliefs are not in harmony with the empirical nature of his environment.
                                Nonsense Jim, your rationality is just as much an illusion as your freedom of the will. How could it logically be any other way? Your whole mental structure was created by the laws of nature and predetermined - and these laws are not rational. It is like saying that a tornado cobbled together a working calculator after blowing through a junk yard. The fact that you act as if you are rational and can even process empirical evidence just again shows that you do secretly believe in freedom of thought. Therefore the human soul.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                142 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                425 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X