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Secular Morality?

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    It is not about liking or disliking what we evolve to Bevis. We have no choice in the matter.



    Again Homer, it is not what we "prefer." The evolutionary process is going to do what it does despite our preferences. So your whole idea of evolving to the next level is just stupid. There is no "next level" as if we are moving up. There is only change, and that change may just as well lead to more violence and tribalism or nationalism.
    We have higher intelligence than the other primates so whereas they, i.e. the chimpanzees and the like are unable to significantly change their situation, the human animal is capable of learning, processing and applying knowledge to the extent of significantly changing the environment and world-view by building upon previous knowledge and experience. Clearly we have developed considerably since our Palaeolithic days. Sadly the tendency to revert to more primitive tribal mode is always present.

    BTW: What is this Homer and Bevis reference all about – some sort of put-down???
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      We have higher intelligence than the other primates so whereas they, i.e. the chimpanzees and the like are unable to significantly change their situation, the human animal is capable of learning, processing and applying knowledge to the extent of significantly changing the environment and world-view by building upon previous knowledge and experience. Clearly we have developed considerably since our Palaeolithic days. Sadly the tendency to revert to more primitive tribal mode is always present.
      The bottom line Tass, as you have made clear in the past, you do not believe that humans have freewill. So we are slaves to biology. So with all our "learning" we are still slaves to biology - and we have no idea where that biology will lead. Instead of moving to a more peaceful world, we may in fact be moving to a more violent world. So when Norm speaks about moving to the evolutionary next level, that is just silly. There are no levels, just change and survival.

      BTW: What is this Homer and Bevis reference all about – some sort of put-down???
      Terms of endearment...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        The bottom line Tass, as you have made clear in the past, you do not believe that humans have freewill. So we are slaves to biology. So with all our "learning" we are still slaves to biology -
        If you believe that we have genuine freewill, as opposed to the illusion of freewill, you need to show at what point in the evolutionary process it was inserted. If you can't do that - apart from unsupported faith statements about God giving it to Adam and Eve - then the universe we living is determined. If you disagree then explain without invoking mythological notions how it is not.

        and we have no idea where that biology will lead. Instead of moving to a more peaceful world, we may in fact be moving to a more violent world. So when Norm speaks about moving to the evolutionary next level, that is just silly. There are no levels, just change and survival.
        We have a very good idea where our biologically-based society is going. While it's possible we could descend into violence if religious extremists prevail, overall we as a species have made colossal strides since our Hunter/Gatherer days. And if religion can be brought to heel we will likely continue to do so.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          We have higher intelligence than the other primates so whereas they, i.e. the chimpanzees and the like are unable to significantly change their situation, the human animal is capable of learning, processing and applying knowledge to the extent of significantly changing the environment and world-view by building upon previous knowledge and experience. Clearly we have developed considerably since our Palaeolithic days. Sadly the tendency to revert to more primitive tribal mode is always present.
          This is exactly right, Tass. The biological elements to our evolution long gave up any kind of irrepressible progression / regression on homo sapiens. Our mental capacity has evolved to the point of giving us the illusion of free-will, so that we can respond and react to environmental stimuli. Lower primates, conversely, are largely unable to effect significant change to their environment. Ironically, the evolution of religion brings in another artificial level of control to compensate for the illusion of free will. It's really scary to be "in control."

          Nevertheless, when we emerge from our metaphorical cave, we can (and have) achieve(d) great things!

          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          BTW: What is this Homer and Bevis reference all about – some sort of put-down???
          It's Seer's attempt to try to make me mad, I am guessing. I'm not sure what some of these folks see in the whole JP Holding thing. Insulting people is the upper echelon of JPH argumentation. But, I would take the insults over the insipid cartoons any day!

          NORM
          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            We have a very good idea where our biologically-based society is going. While it's possible we could descend into violence if religious extremists prevail, overall we as a species have made colossal strides since our Hunter/Gatherer days. And if religion can be brought to heel we will likely continue to do so.
            Again Tass, this is nonsensical. What do you mean by colossal strides? From what to what? You act like there is some objective way for man to be, some goal. Some moral high ground to which we are moving. But that does not exist in a godless universe. There is only survival - we do not "descend" into violence or ascend to peacefulness. We just act out our biology.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
              This is exactly right, Tass. The biological elements to our evolution long gave up any kind of irrepressible progression / regression on homo sapiens. Our mental capacity has evolved to the point of giving us the illusion of free-will, so that we can respond and react to environmental stimuli. Lower primates, conversely, are largely unable to effect significant change to their environment. Ironically, the evolution of religion brings in another artificial level of control to compensate for the illusion of free will. It's really scary to be "in control."
              If free will is an illusion you are still just as determined as any other creature. ISIS fighters for instance are just doing what biology dictates.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Again Tass, this is nonsensical. What do you mean by colossal strides? From what to what? You act like there is some objective way for man to be, some goal. Some moral high ground to which we are moving. But that does not exist in a godless universe. There is only survival - we do not "descend" into violence or ascend to peacefulness. We just act out our biology.
                To "descend," or go backwards, is a contradiction with regards to the process of evolution or survival. Religion has it backwards, life didn't start out in a garden of bliss and descend into chaos.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  To "descend," or go backwards, is a contradiction with regards to the process of evolution or survival.
                  No Jim, there is no backwards or descending in the evolutionary process as Tass suggests. There only is change.

                  Religion has it backwards, life didn't start out in a garden of bliss and descend into chaos.
                  Even if nature did not start off in bliss, the Christian would say that we are moving toward bliss. Where all violence will one day be removed. When men will love their fellow man and God sincerely from the heart, and the lion will lay with the lamb. There is an objective moral goal.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    If free will is an illusion you are still just as determined as any other creature. ISIS fighters for instance are just doing what biology dictates.
                    Do you listen to yourself? ISIS is the epitome of blind adherence to religious idiocy, and NOT biological evolution.

                    NORM
                    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      ... the lion will lay with the lamb. There is an objective moral goal.
                      So, wait...is the lion going to hell for the unrepentant, sinful, eating of lambs? Is not eating lambs a moral goal of lions?

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                        Do you listen to yourself? ISIS is the epitome of blind adherence to religious idiocy, and NOT biological evolution.

                        NORM
                        Norm, you said there is no free will. Therefore it is biology that causes this religious idiocy. Biology that created us to think and act this way. We have no choice - free will is an illusion - remember.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                          So, wait...is the lion going to hell for the unrepentant, sinful, eating of lambs? Is not eating lambs a moral goal of lions?

                          NORM

                          Don't be an idiot your whole life Norm. It is one metaphor, among others, pointing to the end of violence and death in the universe. Revelation 21:4.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Norm, you said there is no free will. Therefore it is biology that causes this religious idiocy. Biology that created us to think and act this way. We have no choice - free will is an illusion - remember.
                            Free will is a meaningless term. That's your invention you need for the machinations of your religion. Non-theists have no need to invent such things. Your mistake is in confusing biological evolution with human action. One can either do what naturally comes their way, or you can invent some deity to which you are dependent. This is what ISIS is doing. It has nothing to do with evolution.

                            NORM
                            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Don't be an idiot your whole life Norm. It is one metaphor, among others, pointing to the end of violence and death in the universe. Revelation 21:4.
                              Ha ha! So glad to see another Biblical work you don't take at face value! One by one ...

                              NORM
                              When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                                Free will is a meaningless term. That's your invention you need for the machinations of your religion. Non-theists have no need to invent such things.
                                No, you just handwave a conspicious part of reality away because it does not fit into your worldview. I exercise my free will almost constantly to the point where it's existence has become so self-evident to me that whenever I hear someone denying free will what they seem to be saying to me is that they are somehow denigrating themselves and making themselves less than they really are. In other words, they're insulting themselves.
                                Last edited by JonathanL; 03-01-2015, 10:10 PM.

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