A provable Bible contradiction

[Roy]

Stay focused and as it has been alleged over and over, there is a contradiction bewteen Luke and Matthew.

In summary, here is yet again another reconcilation explaining Jewish customs and difficulties in transaltion to the English language:

Thank you.

Johnny, pay attention!

Since I'm not Johnny, I think you should pay attention.

Roy

[Didymus]

I would like to ask Christians the explain the following:

Matthew 1:11 says that Josias was Jechonias’ father with "And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren," but 1 Chronicles 3:16 says that Johoiakim was Jechonias’ father with "And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.

You have much to reconcile and admend first dating back many days, through many thread topics. Start here, and get real, put an end to your zeal.

Edit Add:

Matthew 1:11 says Josiah, not Josias

You have jumped to a false conclusion.

1 Chroncicles 3:16 speaks of "successors" of Jehoiakim - Jehoiachin is also his son, and this verse doesn't exclude Josiah as a son.

Why keep spinning in confusion, and posting shot gun allegations?

[Didymus]

Thank you.



Since I'm not Johnny, I think you should pay attention.

Roy

Roy, I can also address Johnny in the same post. Cheers!

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

It makes no sense to say Jesus was Joseph's adopted son to make the connection, since a king's genealogy was always based on a physical connection and since the promise was through David's "seed", that is, through his physical descendants.

Why couldn't there have been adoption, further back in Joseph's line? Say, at the point of departure. Then people would be wondering if Jesus was rightfully the Messiah, in both lines...

Blessings,
Lee

[Johnny Skeptic]

Message to Didymus: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Will you agree that Jechonias in Matthew is the same person as Jeconiah in 1 Chronicles? If so, will you agree that Matthew says that Josias was Jechonias’ father and that 1 Chronicles says that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

[Didymus]

Message to Didymus: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Will you agree that Jechonias in Matthew is the same person as Jeconiah in 1 Chronicles? If so, will you agree that Matthew says that Josias was Jechonias’ father and that 1 Chronicles says that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

I stand corrected who was the Father, and who were the sons. In any event, as in other alleged "contradictions" it is resolved in the footnotes.

Consider a new Bible. I suggest the NIV, ir NKJV. (NOTE: The KJV isn't wrong, but in my opinion, the NIV is more clear, and mixing verses in debates leads to more alleged "contradictions".)

Here is the NIV:

1 Chronicles 3

15 The sons of Josiah:

Johanan the firstborn,
Jehoiakim the second son,
Zedekiah the third,
Shallum the fourth.

16 The successors of Jehoiakim:

Jehoiachin [e] his son,
and Zedekiah.

The Royal Line After the Exile

17 The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive:

Shealtiel his son, 18 Malkiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama and Nedabiah.

19 The sons of Pedaiah:

Zerubbabel and Shimei.
The sons of Zerubbabel:
Meshullam and Hananiah.
Shelomith was their sister.

20 There were also five others:

Hashubah, Ohel, Berekiah, Hasadiah and Jushab-Hesed.

21 The descendants of Hananiah:

Pelatiah and Jeshaiah, and the sons of Rephaiah, of Arnan, of Obadiah and of Shecaniah.

22 The descendants of Shecaniah:

Shemaiah and his sons:

Hattush, Igal, Bariah, Neariah and Shaphat—six in all.

23 The sons of Neariah:

Elioenai, Hizkiah and Azrikam—three in all.

24 The sons of Elioenai:

Hodaviah, Eliashib, Pelaiah, Akkub, Johanan, Delaiah and Anani—seven in all.

Footnotes:

[e] 1 Chronicles 3:16 Hebrew Jeconiah , a variant of Jehoiachin; also in verse 17

Hotlink: Biblegateway.com

[Didymus]

Let us see if Holding’s explanation is reasonable. Following are excerpts from an article at the Secular Web by Kersey Graves:

“Matthew says again, ‘Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.’ (Matt. i. ii.) But Chronicles declares that Jechonias was Jehoiakim's son, and not Josiah's, and that Josiah had no such son. And, besides, we learn, from 2 Kings xiii., that Josiah was killed eleven years before the exile to Babylon, and could not well beget a son after he had been defunct a tenth of a century.” There is no telescoping or ommission of names here, just a proven contradiction.

“Again, Luke says that Salathiel was the son of Neri; but Chronicles says he was the son of Jechonias.” Again, no telescoping or ommission of names, just a proven contradiction.

“And after Chronicles had registered Zorobabel as the son of Penniah, Matthew and Luke, assuming to become ‘wise above what was written,’ both declare that he was the son of Salathiel.” Again, no telescoping or ommission of names, just a proven contradiction.

Johnny, who is Kersey Graves? And, did you want to admend any more alleged "contradictions"?

I like the spelling: Zerubbabel.

And, if the Bible is silent on a topic, does that "prove" a contradiction?

[Johnny Skeptic]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Will you agree that Jechonias in Matthew is the same person as Jeconiah in 1 Chronicles? If so, will you agree that Matthew says that Josias was Jechonias’ father and that 1 Chronicles says that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

Didymus replied: Consider a new Bible. I suggest the NIV, or the NKJV.

Johnny: How about the NASB? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Is Jeconiah the same person in both verses? If so, does Matthew say that Josiah was Jecohiah’s father? Does 1 Chronicles say that instead that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

How about the NRSV? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah the father of Jeconiah….” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoikim: Jeconiah his son……..”

How about the English standard version? Matthew 1:11 says “and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

All three translations say exactly the same thing. This is an obvious contradiction that any average sixth grader could understand.

[Didymus]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.”

O.K. , and you still insist in the KJV? You're mixing OT Vs. NT spellings, if not out right spelling errors of Kelsey Graves!?

1 Chronicles 3:16 says “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

Quote verse 15, and 16 together:

Here it is the NIV:

1 Chronicles 3

15 The sons of Josiah:

Johanan the firstborn,
Jehoiakim the second son,
Zedekiah the third,
Shallum the fourth.

16 The successors of Jehoiakim:

Jehoiachin [Jeconiah , a variant of Jehoiachin] his son,
and Zedekiah.

Will you agree that Jechonias in Matthew is the same person as Jeconiah in 1 Chronicles? If so, will you agree that Matthew says that Josias was Jechonias’ father and that 1 Chronicles says that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

Go back and read 1 Chronicles 3:15-16 again.

Johnny: How about the NASB? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Is Jeconiah the same person in both verses? If so, does Matthew say that Josiah was Jecohiah’s father? Does 1 Chronicles say that instead that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

How about the NRSV? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah the father of Jeconiah….” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoikim: Jeconiah his son……..”

How about the English standard version? Matthew 1:11 says “and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

All three translations say exactly the same thing. This is an obvious contradiction that any average sixth grader could understand.

Double check the footnotes. Jeconiah , a variant of Jehoiachin. Be careful of OT Vs. NT spellings.

Peace and enjoy the fireworks!

Re: Kersey Graves

Oops. A Quaker quack? More fun and adventures with Infidels.org?

Kersey Graves was born on 21 November 1813, in Brownsville, Pennsylvania, and died on 4 September 1883, at Richmond, Indiana. Graves was a skeptic, atheist, spiritualist, theological reformist, and writer. His parents were Quakers, and as a young man he followed them in their observance, but later moved to the Hicksite wing of Quakerism. Graves was largely self-educated, and at the age of 19 was teaching in a school at Richmond, a career he was to follow for more than twenty years.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Will you agree that Jechonias in Matthew is the same person as Jeconiah in 1 Chronicles? If so, will you agree that Matthew says that Josias was Jechonias’ father and that 1 Chronicles says that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

Didymus replied: Consider a new Bible. I suggest the NIV, or the NKJV.

Johnny Skeptic further replied: How about the NASB? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.” Is Jeconiah the same person in both verses? If so, does Matthew say that Josiah was Jecohiah’s father? Does 1 Chronicles say that instead that Jehoiakim was Jeconiah’s father?

How about the NRSV? Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah the father of Jeconiah….” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoikim: Jeconiah his son……..”

How about the English Standard Version? Matthew 1:11 says “and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The descendants of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

All three translations say exactly the same thing. This is an obvious contradiction that any average sixth grader could understand.

Didymus wrote: Double check the footnotes. Peace and enjoy the fireworks!

Johnny: Which footnotes in which Bibles? Footnotes won't get you out of this obvious contradiction. You need quote your footnotes.

Didymus: Re: Kersey Graves

Oops. A Quaker quack? More fun and adventures with Infidels.org?

Kersey Graves was born on 21 November 1813, in Brownsville, Pennsylvania, and died on 4 September 1883, at Richmond, Indiana. Graves was a skeptic, atheist, spiritualist, theological reformist, and writer. His parents were Quakers, and as a young man he followed them in their observance, but later moved to the Hicksite wing of Quakerism. Graves was largely self-educated, and at the age of 19 was teaching in a school at Richmond, a career he was to follow for more than twenty years.

Kersey Graves is irrelevant. All that is relevant is what the Bible says, and the KJV, the NASB, the NRSV and the English Standard Bible all clearly show that Matthew 1:11 contradicts 1 Chronicles 3:16.

[Didymus]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: In the KJV Matthew 1:11 says “And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon.”

Are you a KJV only kind of skeptic?

Are you confusing sons, vis-a-via Kings? Matthew is interested in sons, and geneology, and 1 Chron. as stated in 1 Chr. 3:10 is focused on "Kings of Judah".

Try Matthew 1, in the NIV!

Matthew 1

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah [That is, Jehoiachin; also in verse 12] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon

12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

[Didymus]

1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

I found the error causing your misunderstanding. Stick with the NIV:

1 Chroinicles 3:16:

The sons successors of Jehoiakim:

Hotlink: 1 Chronicles 3: Biblegateway.com

Look again, the successor to Jehoiakim - Jeconiah was also the son of Josiah.

Bingo, thanks for playing! Poor Kersey Graves, if he only knew!

Matthew is 100% correct:

Matthew 1

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

Didymus replied: I found the error causing your misunderstanding. Very clever, I don't know why I didn't spot this right away.

You misquoted 1 Chronicles 3:16:

The sons successors of Jehoiakim:

Hotlink: 1 Chronicles 3: Biblegateway.com

Look again, the successor to Jehoiakim - Jeconiah was also the son of Josiah.

Johnny: I did not misquote anything. I cut and pasted my quotes right out of the Bible Gateway web site. In the NASB Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 disagrees with “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

The issue here is who Jeconiah’s father was. You said “Jeconiah was also the son of Josiah.” That is what Matthew says, but 1 Chronicles 3:16 says that Jeconiah was the son of Jehoiakim.

[Hail Mary]

I notice that no Christian has responded to my post #18 regarding the genealogy of Jesus. Why not? If some Christians claim that is it irrelevant to this thread, I will start a new thread

Johnny Skeptic, considering you whined about not getting a response to post #18, likewise, I'm going to whine that you didn't respond to my response here.

[Didymus]

Johnny Skeptic wrote: 1 Chronicles 3:16 says “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

Didymus replied: I found the error causing your misunderstanding. Very clever, I don't know why I didn't spot this right away.

You misquoted 1 Chronicles 3:16: [With an edit change I said, stick with the NIV]

The sons successors of Jehoiakim:

Hotlink: 1 Chronicles 3: Biblegateway.com

Look again, the successor to Jehoiakim - Jeconiah was also the son of Josiah.

Johnny: I did not misquote anything. I cut and pasted my quotes right out of the Bible Gateway web site. In the NASB Matthew 1:11 says “Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.” 1 Chronicles 3:16 disagrees with “The sons of Jehoiakim were Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.”

The issue here is who Jeconiah’s father was. You said “Jeconiah was also the son of Josiah.” That is what Matthew says, but 1 Chronicles 3:16 says that Jeconiah was the son of Jehoiakim.

Yeah? Try again!

Stick with the NIV and stop mixing up your apples and prunes.

Go back and look at my post again!

Matthew 1:11 says what?

Matthew 1

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

Re: 1 Chronicles 3

Quote verse 15, and 16 together:

Here it is the NIV:

1 Chronicles 3

15 The sons of Josiah:

Johanan the firstborn,
Jehoiakim the second son,
Zedekiah the third,
Shallum the fourth.

16 The successors of Jehoiakim:

Jehoiachin [Jeconiah , a variant of Jehoiachin] his son,
and Zedekiah.