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Thread: Is defending a 'young' earth necessary?

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    no
    "no" ???

    Could you elaborate? ... two-character responses aren't my forte.

    Jorge

  2. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    Seriously? You too?
    OK, what did I miss?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Yeah, and you would never say similar things like say, KJV Onlyism?

    This is a total misrepresentation of what Jorge has said.Having a distorted view of the Bible is not anywhere near the same as saying someone is not a Christian.
    Thanks, C123.

    Only to 'these people' does one have to go out of the way to point out the obvious.

    Jorge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
    Thanks, C123.

    Only to 'these people' does one have to go out of the way to point out the obvious.

    Jorge


    "these people"?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  5. #15
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Yeah, and you would never say similar things like say, KJV Onlyism?

    This is a total misrepresentation of what Jorge has said.Having a distorted view of the Bible is not anywhere near the same as saying someone is not a Christian.
    What is the topic of the thread?

    "Is Defending a 'young earth' necessary?"

    So his question has to be taken in mind with the topic of the thread. His implication is pretty obvious... any view that isn't YEC is a 'distortion' of the faith. Besides, Jorge seems to hop back and forth between if non YEC's are Christian or not and never seems to give a straight answer. Hummm... I wonder why...
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  6. #16
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
    Thanks, C123.

    Only to 'these people' does one have to go out of the way to point out the obvious.

    Jorge
    Don't want to answer the question, I understand... it would expose your dishonesty and we can't have that.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  7. #17
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Notice how Jorge implies that YEC is a critical belief of Christianity and is a requirement for being a Christian. Nice, do you always try to pull the wool over people's eyes and hope they are too dumb to spot you trying to do this? Perhaps you should answer this question first:

    Is YEC a requirement for being a Christian?

    You say it isn't, but than you make post like the above one that say otherwise, so what is your answer?
    Recently on a different website I started a thread called "YECs: Do you have to believe in a young earth and reject evolution to be a Christian?" Most of those who responded either gave very evasive answers (which you had to press them for) or worked very hard to change the subject. Two gave direct answers which were no.

    Here is the post:

    Source: YECs: Do you have to believe in a young earth and reject evolution to be a Christian?


    IMHO, after reading numerous posts from the YECs that post in this section (Evolution and Intelligent Design) it seems that most (but not all) of them think that in order to be a True Christian™ you must first bow before the altar of YEC dogma. They tell us that if you don't think that the earth and surrounding universe are only a few thousand years old and that life cannot change, adapt and diversify over time (i.e., evolve) then you can't be a Christian.

    The question that immediately springs to mind is did Christ say that? No He did not. Well then, did any of the Biblical authors say such a thing? Again, no. In fact I have yet to find anything in the Bible that even remotely suggests such a thing. Moreover at no time or place have these beliefs been considered anywhere near to being essential to the Christian faith.

    It is not part of any creed nor has it even been brought up for discussion at a Council or Synod. Further, it should be noted that none of the great Reformed confessions make any comment on the matter of the nature of creation. Not the French Confession (1559), the Scots'Confession (1560), the Belgic Confession (1561), the Heidelberg Catechism (1563), the Second Helvetic Confession (1566), the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England (1563, 1571) or any of the others. They may stress the sovereign action of God in creating all things but the universal absence of any reference connected even remotely to the issue of the days of creation or the processes involved establishes that it was not a confessional issue in the slightest.

    I cannot say with utter certainty but I believe the same is also true for the Roman Catholic Church (the last few popes have even endorsed Theistic Evolution) as well as the Orthodox churches.

    And the reason that it has never been a matter of definition is because it was not a matter of controversy or even a point for discussion, despite the varying views in exegetical history. There have always been widely divergent views regarding this subject and not once has it been thought necessary to form a single orthodox view[1].

    The closest this ever even came to taking place was during the 1982 International Council on Biblical Inerrancy where the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was crafted by a group of largely very conservative evangelicals. There the father of the modern creationist movement, Henry Morris, sought to include a 144-hour creation as an essential component of a fundamentalist belief in inerrancy. It was rejected by every other member. None thought it was necessary.

    So anyone who insists that one must accept YEC dogma is shifting the foundation of our faith from Christ and onto the age of the earth and what has happened to life after it arose. This contradicts what the Bible teaches which is that the foundation of our faith ought to be built upon Christ and His finished work on the cross -- not upon the age of the earth or whether life has evolved.

    For instance pay especially close attention to what Jesus says about those who base their faith on something other than Christ:

    Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." --Matthew 7:24-27

    Essentially what some YECs are doing is adding to Scripture -- something we're repeatedly and explicitly told not to do (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; cf. Revelation 22:18-19).

    For instance, in I Corinthians 15:14, Paul informs us that

    And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

    But folks who insist that we should follow YEC tenets in order to be True Christians™ seem to think that Paul got it wrong and seek to "correct" him by adding to it, essentially changing what Paul wrote to

    And if Christ has not been raised and if life changes over time and the creation is more than a few thousand years old, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

    Likewise, when Paul informs us in Romans 10:9 that

    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    These same YECs again seek to "correct" Paul by adding to his message so that it reads something like

    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and disagree that the creation is more than a few thousand years old and that life changes and adapts over time, you will be saved.

    Similarly when Luke tells us in Acts 16:31 that Paul and Silas told their jailer that...

    Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

    ...they "really" meant to say

    Believe in the Lord Jesus and that life does not change and adapt over time and that the creation is only a few thousand years old, and you will be saved, you and your household.

    Moreover these YECs seem to think that Christ Himself got it all wrong or misspoke when he said in John 3:5

    Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    So they seek to change it to

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, and believes that the earth is but a few thousand years old and that life does not change or adapt over time he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    Likewise a little further on at verse 16 where Jesus tells us

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    These YECs again want to correct Him by adding what He must have forgot to include

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him and that the earth is only a few thousand years old and rejects the idea that life changes and adapts over time should not perish but have eternal life.

    Finally, did Peter say anything about a young earth or denying evolution in his confession recorded in Matthew 16:16? No, he said that "You are the Christ, the son of the living God" and did Jesus rebuke him and say, "No Peter, thou must first believe in a young earth before you can be my servant"?

    And speaking of Peter, look at the reaction to his sermon recorded in Acts 2 after the Holy Spirit visited him and the other apostles as they were staying in Jerusalem. The listeners asked him how they could be saved to which Peter replied in verses 38-39

    Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

    But once again most of the YECs here seem to think that Peter, like Paul screwed it up and its up to them to correct his supposed error and add to the message.

    By continuing to demand that one must also comply with YEC dogma such folks are putting "an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way" (Romans 14:13).








    1. And please note that nobody thought that not taking the creation account in a woodenly literal and simplistic manner was somehow equivalent to calling God a liar.

    © Copyright Original Source



    When you got past the responses from the trolls the thread actually resulted in some very interesting discussions.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  8. Amen Truthseeker amen'd this post.
  9. #18
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Maybe there's some history or undertones here with which I am not familiar.

    I personally don't believe somebody has to agree to MY exact interpretation of the Bible to be saved, or that they have to agree and understand EVERYTHING in the Bible in order to have Salvation....

    And, Jorge - your definition of "proper" is rather convoluted. If a believer does not believe in your interpretation of a young earth, does that mean he's "serving anti-biblical, anti-Christian agendas"?????

    REALLY?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. Amen Quantum Weirdness amen'd this post.
  11. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Notice how Jorge implies that YEC is a critical belief of Christianity and is a requirement for being a Christian. Nice, do you always try to pull the wool over people's eyes and hope they are too dumb to spot you trying to do this? Perhaps you should answer this question first:

    Is YEC a requirement for being a Christian?

    You say it isn't, but than you make post like the above one that say otherwise, so what is your answer?
    READ MY LIPS: I have answered that question at least 30 times (likely more than that number) dating back to my entry at TWeb, over 11 years and 15,000 posts ago. My answers never amounted to a hill a beans for you people so why would I think that this time around it would be different? All you do is ignore the answer and then repeat the same question over and over again, using that age-old tactic of cheap, crooked lawyers.

    Jorge

  12. #20
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
    READ MY LIPS: I have answered that question at least 30 times (likely more than that number) dating back to my entry at TWeb, over 11 years and 15,000 posts ago. My answers never amounted to a hill a beans for you people so why would I think that this time around it would be different? All you do is ignore the answer and then repeat the same question over and over again, using that age-old tactic of cheap, crooked lawyers.

    Jorge
    Wow... yeah, I guess there's a lot more history here than I was aware.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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