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Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    All five of the other Judges led military campaigns.
    Which doesn't make it a requirement - David was a military leader and didn't lead every campaign so even if it were, there's no proof Deborah wasn't also a military leader seeing as she went with Barak and he wanted her in the first place. Not enough information there to contradict the plain reading - Deborah was a judge of Israel.
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    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Which doesn't make it a requirement - David was a military leader and didn't lead every campaign so even if it were, there's no proof Deborah wasn't also a military leader seeing as she went with Barak and he wanted her in the first place. Not enough information there to contradict the plain reading - Deborah was a judge of Israel.
      Deborah as a judge - whatever her responsibilities - has nothing to do with women being bishops. Besides, there seems to be nothing to indicate that she was "appointed by God" to do this. If that's the best example we can come up with, it's a pretty weak case.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Deborah as a judge - whatever her responsibilities - has nothing to do with women being bishops. Besides, there seems to be nothing to indicate that she was "appointed by God" to do this. If that's the best example we can come up with, it's a pretty weak case.
        Prophetess, remember. Pretty accurate one, too - so it God disapproved why is He letting her just keep doing it?

        If women are never to lead, the existence of a female judge refutes that argument in its entirety. If they can lead a little, 2 Tim becomes problematic for the other side of the argument.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Prophetess, remember.
          Yup! Still not a PASTOR or BISHOP.

          Pretty accurate one, too - so it God disapproved why is He letting her just keep doing it?
          Nobody said God disapproved. The statement was that she didn't appear to be "appointed by God", which was an earlier claim, unsubstantiated.

          If women are never to lead,
          WHO is saying that?

          the existence of a female judge refutes that argument in its entirety.
          Refuting an argument what wasn't made isn't very fruitful.

          If they can lead a little, 2 Tim becomes problematic for the other side of the argument.
          Nope. It doesn't. There are a lot of things we (The New Testament Church) do/does differently than they did in the OT.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            I don't find it that problematic. Aside from the general cultural parameters of the author and communities of the time, the emphasis in the Greek word order indicates that the intent was to eliminate polygamy among episcopoi, who are indeed being thought of as male, but not to emphasize male sex as opposed to female sex with respect to eligibility. Polygamy was a practice among some upper classes, but polyandry was not an issue.
            Are we talking about the same passage? 1 timothy 2???

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            • Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
              Are we talking about the same passage? 1 timothy 2???
              Oops, I thought you were referring to 1 Timothy 3,2.
              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yup! Still not a PASTOR or BISHOP.
                And which Apostles were? In Scripture, please.


                Nobody said God disapproved. The statement was that she didn't appear to be "appointed by God", which was an earlier claim, unsubstantiated.
                If God didn't disapprove then she is appointed by God - as is true of any government, remember?

                More to the point, if God doesn't disapprove of a woman clearly in a leadership role (judge of Israel) then there's no reason to believe He changes His mind on the matter.



                WHO is saying that?
                You can have cake or you can eat cake - you can't have cake and eat it too. If the prohibition in Tim is universal then it's nonsensical to talk about women in any leadership roles whatsoever over men - and 'men' start at 13 when Tim would certainly still have been under his mother and grandmother's influence.



                Refuting an argument what wasn't made isn't very fruitful.
                It's part of the overall argument.

                Originally posted by CP
                Nope. It doesn't. There are a lot of things we (The New Testament Church) do/does differently than they did in the OT.
                Yep, does. If universal, Paul is expressly forbidding women to have leadership over men - there can be no half-way mark without coming into conflict with this verse. And 2 Tim is in the NT, not the OT.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  And which Apostles were?
                  I'm all done, brother. Battle on without me.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                    If I wasn't clear I was trying to convey that this isn't some new movement within the A/G, since 1935 we've ordained women.

                    I found a link where the A/G General Superintendent George O. Wood talked about the SBC position on female ordination and I think it's interesting. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/2001..._exploring.cfm
                    Superintendent Wood's article is a good reflection of my thoughts about women taking the lead (or senior) pastorship.

                    I mentioned I was reading more of the Spirit's role and impact in the OT. I'm impressed by how people regarded the action of the Spirit as God's last word (no joke intended). Wood's observations on the work of the Spirit in Cornelius ' s house is what my thoughts are about the work of the Spirit.

                    I believe Paul was dealing with a situation Timothy was facing. There must have been a large group of women causing confusion and not only in church matters. In the instructions regarding widows, Paul made his famous statement that anyone not taking care of their family were worse than the pagans. Then, after listing the requirements for widows to receive support from the church, and forbidding younger widows to receive such help, he added, "and if any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them..." this is one more challenge to the women to show their godliness. There are other rebukes to women..."old wives' tales", and "dress modestly, with decency and propriety...". His lengthy criticism of younger widows, in my opinon, shows what confusion there was in Ephesus.
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I'm all done, brother. Battle on without me.
                      That's 'sister' to you!
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        That's 'sister' to you!

                        Yes sir.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • I have been looking at the argument from Junia, and I believe that there is a major hole: the implicit assumption that ἀποστόλος has the same semantic domain as 'apostle'.

                          Let us grant the assumption that the passage denotes Junia as an ἀποστόλος. The argument runs thus: she is therefore an apostle, and the English word 'apostle', being strongly associated with the Twelve and Paul, is connoted with the not least with high leadership roles in the church. Junia was hence a leader.

                          There is, however, an immediate question raised: if the group of apostles had been expanded beyond the Twelve and Paul, it is not clear that the connotation necessarily holds for all members of the expanded group. This is not a mere quibble about possibilities; ἀποστόλος can and (in certain contexts) does mean messenger. As ἀποστόλος does not have the same semantic domain as 'apostle', the retrojection of the leadership connotations of the English 'apostle' to Junias is not obvious and has not been justified.

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                          • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            I have been looking at the argument from Junia, and I believe that there is a major hole: the implicit assumption that ἀποστόλος has the same semantic domain as 'apostle'.

                            Let us grant the assumption that the passage denotes Junia as an ἀποστόλος. The argument runs thus: she is therefore an apostle, and the English word 'apostle', being strongly associated with the Twelve and Paul, is connoted with the not least with high leadership roles in the church. Junia was hence a leader.

                            There is, however, an immediate question raised: if the group of apostles had been expanded beyond the Twelve and Paul, it is not clear that the connotation necessarily holds for all members of the expanded group. This is not a mere quibble about possibilities; ἀποστόλος can and (in certain contexts) does mean messenger. As ἀποστόλος does not have the same semantic domain as 'apostle', the retrojection of the leadership connotations of the English 'apostle' to Junias is not obvious and has not been justified.
                            ἀποστόλος does indeed mean apostle. It also is used for a messenger/emissary or one that was commissioned by the Lord specifically. What is a very important aspect that is over looked is when Paul calls her and Andronicus ἐν Χριστῷ. Consider they were also both in jail with Paul. We know that in the early church the only Christians to have been arrested where of the most prominent status. Rome wanted to make examples so they rounded up and arrested the most important and most vocal teachers of the group. Junia and Andronicus were among them. Of the scholars I have a high regard for, only two of them do not believe Junia was an apostle. Michael Heiser and Dan Wallace. But the consensus and the overwhelming data stands. Junia was an apostle of high standing.
                            Last edited by Jesse; 02-26-2015, 12:29 PM.
                            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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                            • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                              ἀποστόλος does indeed mean apostle.
                              I did not say that there was no overlap in semantic domain, but that they are not identical. As you note, it can just mean messenger - so why should you conclude that it couldn't have just meant 'messenger'?

                              It also is used for a messenger/emissary or one that was commissioned by the Lord specifically. What is a very important aspect that is over looked is when Paul calls her and Andronicus ἐν Χριστῷ.
                              I fail to see any point to this statement.

                              Consider they were also both in jail with Paul. We know that in the early church the only Christians to have been arrested where of the most prominent status. Rome wanted to make examples so they rounded up and arrested the most important and most vocal teachers of the group. Junia and Andronicus were among them.
                              Teacher is not equivalent to leader.

                              Of the scholars I have a high regard for, only two of them do not believe Junia was an apostle. Michael Heiser and Dan Wallace. But the consensus and the overwhelming data stands. Junia was an apostle of high standing.

                              Way to ignore the point that I was making.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paprika
                                I did not say that there was no overlap in semantic domain, but that they are not identical. As you note, it can just mean messenger - so why should you conclude that it couldn't have just meant 'messenger'?
                                You don't understand what the term messenger meant at that time. That role was specific to the first Christians. Those who started ministries. It is the reason why it's one of the terms used for apostle. Again, we are dealing with semantics.

                                Originally posted by Paprika
                                I fail to see any point to this statement.
                                I am not surprised.

                                Originally posted by Paprika
                                Teacher is not equivalent to leader.
                                Those that were mentioned by Paul were both.

                                Originally posted by Paprika
                                Way to ignore the point that I was making.
                                I know the point you were making.
                                Last edited by Jesse; 02-26-2015, 01:02 PM.
                                "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                                Comment

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