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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWhich doesn't make it a requirement - David was a military leader and didn't lead every campaign so even if it were, there's no proof Deborah wasn't also a military leader seeing as she went with Barak and he wanted her in the first place. Not enough information there to contradict the plain reading - Deborah was a judge of Israel.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostDeborah as a judge - whatever her responsibilities - has nothing to do with women being bishops. Besides, there seems to be nothing to indicate that she was "appointed by God" to do this. If that's the best example we can come up with, it's a pretty weak case.
If women are never to lead, the existence of a female judge refutes that argument in its entirety. If they can lead a little, 2 Tim becomes problematic for the other side of the argument."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostProphetess, remember.
Pretty accurate one, too - so it God disapproved why is He letting her just keep doing it?
If women are never to lead,
the existence of a female judge refutes that argument in its entirety.
If they can lead a little, 2 Tim becomes problematic for the other side of the argument.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI don't find it that problematic. Aside from the general cultural parameters of the author and communities of the time, the emphasis in the Greek word order indicates that the intent was to eliminate polygamy among episcopoi, who are indeed being thought of as male, but not to emphasize male sex as opposed to female sex with respect to eligibility. Polygamy was a practice among some upper classes, but polyandry was not an issue.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYup! Still not a PASTOR or BISHOP.
Nobody said God disapproved. The statement was that she didn't appear to be "appointed by God", which was an earlier claim, unsubstantiated.
More to the point, if God doesn't disapprove of a woman clearly in a leadership role (judge of Israel) then there's no reason to believe He changes His mind on the matter.
WHO is saying that?
Refuting an argument what wasn't made isn't very fruitful.
Originally posted by CPNope. It doesn't. There are a lot of things we (The New Testament Church) do/does differently than they did in the OT."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostAnd which Apostles were?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Pentecost View PostIf I wasn't clear I was trying to convey that this isn't some new movement within the A/G, since 1935 we've ordained women.
I found a link where the A/G General Superintendent George O. Wood talked about the SBC position on female ordination and I think it's interesting. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/2001..._exploring.cfm
I mentioned I was reading more of the Spirit's role and impact in the OT. I'm impressed by how people regarded the action of the Spirit as God's last word (no joke intended). Wood's observations on the work of the Spirit in Cornelius ' s house is what my thoughts are about the work of the Spirit.
I believe Paul was dealing with a situation Timothy was facing. There must have been a large group of women causing confusion and not only in church matters. In the instructions regarding widows, Paul made his famous statement that anyone not taking care of their family were worse than the pagans. Then, after listing the requirements for widows to receive support from the church, and forbidding younger widows to receive such help, he added, "and if any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them..." this is one more challenge to the women to show their godliness. There are other rebukes to women..."old wives' tales", and "dress modestly, with decency and propriety...". His lengthy criticism of younger widows, in my opinon, shows what confusion there was in Ephesus.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm all done, brother. Battle on without me."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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I have been looking at the argument from Junia, and I believe that there is a major hole: the implicit assumption that ἀποστόλος has the same semantic domain as 'apostle'.
Let us grant the assumption that the passage denotes Junia as an ἀποστόλος. The argument runs thus: she is therefore an apostle, and the English word 'apostle', being strongly associated with the Twelve and Paul, is connoted with the not least with high leadership roles in the church. Junia was hence a leader.
There is, however, an immediate question raised: if the group of apostles had been expanded beyond the Twelve and Paul, it is not clear that the connotation necessarily holds for all members of the expanded group. This is not a mere quibble about possibilities; ἀποστόλος can and (in certain contexts) does mean messenger. As ἀποστόλος does not have the same semantic domain as 'apostle', the retrojection of the leadership connotations of the English 'apostle' to Junias is not obvious and has not been justified.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI have been looking at the argument from Junia, and I believe that there is a major hole: the implicit assumption that ἀποστόλος has the same semantic domain as 'apostle'.
Let us grant the assumption that the passage denotes Junia as an ἀποστόλος. The argument runs thus: she is therefore an apostle, and the English word 'apostle', being strongly associated with the Twelve and Paul, is connoted with the not least with high leadership roles in the church. Junia was hence a leader.
There is, however, an immediate question raised: if the group of apostles had been expanded beyond the Twelve and Paul, it is not clear that the connotation necessarily holds for all members of the expanded group. This is not a mere quibble about possibilities; ἀποστόλος can and (in certain contexts) does mean messenger. As ἀποστόλος does not have the same semantic domain as 'apostle', the retrojection of the leadership connotations of the English 'apostle' to Junias is not obvious and has not been justified.Last edited by Jesse; 02-26-2015, 12:29 PM."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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I did not say that there was no overlap in semantic domain, but that they are not identical. As you note, it can just mean messenger - so why should you conclude that it couldn't have just meant 'messenger'?
It also is used for a messenger/emissary or one that was commissioned by the Lord specifically. What is a very important aspect that is over looked is when Paul calls her and Andronicus ἐν Χριστῷ.
Consider they were also both in jail with Paul. We know that in the early church the only Christians to have been arrested where of the most prominent status. Rome wanted to make examples so they rounded up and arrested the most important and most vocal teachers of the group. Junia and Andronicus were among them.
Of the scholars I have a high regard for, only two of them do not believe Junia was an apostle. Michael Heiser and Dan Wallace. But the consensus and the overwhelming data stands. Junia was an apostle of high standing.
Way to ignore the point that I was making.
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Originally posted by PaprikaI did not say that there was no overlap in semantic domain, but that they are not identical. As you note, it can just mean messenger - so why should you conclude that it couldn't have just meant 'messenger'?
Originally posted by PaprikaI fail to see any point to this statement.
Originally posted by PaprikaTeacher is not equivalent to leader.
Originally posted by PaprikaWay to ignore the point that I was making.Last edited by Jesse; 02-26-2015, 01:02 PM."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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