Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Chrawnus Goes on an Adventure to Learn about Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
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The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostIf there is a church nearby that seems to be among the best nearby churches, why not go there even if it is not Eastern Orthodox?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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So, in order to to delve a bit deeper into my study of Orthodoxy I decided to purchase the kindle version of the Orthodox Study Bible. I haven't actually begun reading the text and study notes in earnest yet, but it's interesting to see that the Orthodox hold to some viewpoints that I myself have arrived at (with the help of others) regarding the bible, such the legitimacy of typology in interpreting the Old Testament and the appearance to Abraham of the three men at Mamre and the appearances of the Angel of the LORD as being theophanies of the pre-incarnate Son.
But I especially consider the article on deification to be especially interesting. OPB or any other Orthodox Christian can correct me on this if I am wrong, but the way I've understood the doctrine of deification is that the process culminates at the return of Christ whereby believers will be infused with the grace or divine energies of God to such an extent that we become sinless and our bodies become immortal and incorruptible (i.e it's not that the resurrection bodies themselves have these qualities, but they aquire them through the infusal of God's energies). Am I correct to understand deification in this way, or am I misunderstanding it in someway?
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I don't think I've ever seen it described that way before, but I admittedly haven't read up on deification much (I have a couple books on the topic in my to-read stack). We will be sinless, with immortal and incorruptible bodies, in the Resurrection, but there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't think I've ever seen it described that way before, but I admittedly haven't read up on deification much (I have a couple books on the topic in my to-read stack). We will be sinless, with immortal and incorruptible bodies, in the Resurrection, but there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.
ETA: I noticed that my sentence structure was hopelessly garbled. Hopefully it didn't introduce too much confusion.Last edited by JonathanL; 03-08-2015, 03:27 PM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt does seem to logically follow from what I've read of deification so far, atleast the part when it comes to sinlessness, provided that I've understood what I've read so far correctly. Would it be correct to state that the understanding that the process of deification is what gives us power to resist the temptation of sin in this life?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Postbut there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't think I agree with that; the process of deification allows us to see our sins more clearly, but even those who have been granted a vision of the uncreated light still struggle with temptation - albeit of a different sort; St. Siluoan said that one who had seen the uncreated light could lie beside a maiden without temptation, because re-attaining that vision was far more desirable than sex. Few people attain that in this life, however.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI think my use of the word 'culminates' was a bad one, because it was not my intent to imply that the process ends at the Last Day, but rather that it takes on a new intensity, perhaps even quality.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI will have to reread the passages about deification in the books you recommended to me to see what it is that I've misunderstood.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Chrawnus Goes on an Adventure to Learn about Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
Flagrantly late to the thread, but I'm doing the same thing as you are, sort of. In my case, I've been going to an Orthodox church for a while with the intention of finding out whether it's something I could ever convert to, after a while started to feel that I had unfairly dismissed Catholicism without really giving it a hearing, and have sort of doubled back and am taking RCIA and occasionally going to Catholic services . . . the result being that I can now justifiably decline Catholicism after having given it due time and consideration.
For Catholicism, I would specifically NOT recommend the book my RCIA class is using, Open Wide the Doors to Christ by Lucas R. Pollice. It is at a pretty low reading level and has occasional mistakes, so although it would be a decent basic introduction for people who want an easy read, based on the things you've mentioned reading in this thread alone, I doubt it would satisfy you intellectually. Personally, I felt my time would probably have been better spent just reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church cover-to-cover (something I have yet to do). The Catechism itself is probably your best bet; it's very thorough and is specifically designed to cover everything a person needs to know about Catholic beliefs. There are also tons of excellent web resources. Catholic Answers, which you may have already run across, is good; many of their articles are specifically checked and endorsed by the Catholic hierarchy as being free from error.
For Orthodoxy, by now you might be ready to move past introductory works, but if not, there is a five-volume catechism series by Fr. Thomas Hopko, The Orthodox Faith, that can be read online in its entirety.
About Lossky, I've only read his Orthodox Theology: An Introduction, but it was fantastic. Don't be deceived by the word "introduction"; although it is a short book, its philosophical and spiritual depth is mind-blowing.
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Ancient Faith Radio as an online resource for Orthodoxy, but here it is. Based on the small amount I have sampled, the quality of the podcasts varies. The ones I listened to by Fr. Hopko were good.
For me, also, deification is a bit of a snaggy issue; I ran across this scholarly article about where the topic of deification appears in the Early Church Fathers and what they say about it, so I thought I would toss that out in case it is helpful to you. It is not an in-depth treatment on the topic, but the way that the author identifies all the passages where the ECF talk about deification is helpful if you want to pursue ECF writings on the topic (that probably will be my next step on this issue).
Most importantly, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to go to the services. Reading books is good, and a lot of people have come to Orthodoxy that by reading about it first, and I don't want to criticize that. But Orthodoxy is something that absolutely must be experienced, and there is no way to put that in words.
Right now is a great time to experience the services, too. The presanctified liturgies (Wednesdays and Fridays during Lent) are wonderful and have a distinct atmosphere (quietness and stillness, though that's not all there is to it) that is unique to them. The Akathist to the Mother of God is beautiful if you're favorably inclined towards veneration of Mary. And of course the regular Sunday Divine Liturgy, the central worship experience of the Orthodox Church, is amazing no when you choose to go.
TL;DR As a fellow seeker, the absolute best advice I can possibly give you is simply "Go to the Orthodox Divine Services."
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Lossky is definitely NOT introductory reading!
I agree that you should go to an Orthodox service, if you can. I have no idea if there are any in your area that use your vernacular or not; I'd guess that most Orthodox churches in Finland would either use Finn or Slavonic. My diocesan cathedral streams its services live, but that wouldn't be the same.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLossky is definitely NOT introductory reading!
I agree that you should go to an Orthodox service, if you can. I have no idea if there are any in your area that use your vernacular or not; I'd guess that most Orthodox churches in Finland would either use Finn or Slavonic. My diocesan cathedral streams its services live, but that wouldn't be the same.
Someday.
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I just want to chime in that I am quietly enjoying this thread very much, and I think that perhaps after I've gone through John Wesley's work (which I'm enjoying starting at with his Journal), perhaps I will find some English translations of the Eastern Church Fathers instead of finishing Against Heresies by Irenaeus immediately.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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