Chrawnus Goes on an Adventure to Learn about Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

[Truthseeker]

I agree! Even the best of churches are comprised of broken humans in need of a Savior.

If there is a church nearby that seems to be among the best nearby churches, why not go there even if it is not Eastern Orthodox?

[One Bad Pig]

If there is a church nearby that seems to be among the best nearby churches, why not go there even if it is not Eastern Orthodox?

I've never been concerned with going to the 'best' church. My criterion before I converted was 'closest to that of the apostles in faith and practice.' When I became convinced that that was the Orthodox Church, I converted. There are several Orthodox churches in my area; I happen to go to the closest one, because I felt most comfortable there (that criterion suggested by the first Orthodox priest I talked with).

[JonathanL]

So, in order to to delve a bit deeper into my study of Orthodoxy I decided to purchase the kindle version of the Orthodox Study Bible. I haven't actually begun reading the text and study notes in earnest yet, but it's interesting to see that the Orthodox hold to some viewpoints that I myself have arrived at (with the help of others) regarding the bible, such the legitimacy of typology in interpreting the Old Testament and the appearance to Abraham of the three men at Mamre and the appearances of the Angel of the LORD as being theophanies of the pre-incarnate Son.


But I especially consider the article on deification to be especially interesting. OPB or any other Orthodox Christian can correct me on this if I am wrong, but the way I've understood the doctrine of deification is that the process culminates at the return of Christ whereby believers will be infused with the grace or divine energies of God to such an extent that we become sinless and our bodies become immortal and incorruptible (i.e it's not that the resurrection bodies themselves have these qualities, but they aquire them through the infusal of God's energies). Am I correct to understand deification in this way, or am I misunderstanding it in someway?

[One Bad Pig]

I don't think I've ever seen it described that way before, but I admittedly haven't read up on deification much (I have a couple books on the topic in my to-read stack). We will be sinless, with immortal and incorruptible bodies, in the Resurrection, but there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.

[JonathanL]

I don't think I've ever seen it described that way before, but I admittedly haven't read up on deification much (I have a couple books on the topic in my to-read stack). We will be sinless, with immortal and incorruptible bodies, in the Resurrection, but there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.

It does seem to logically follow from what I've read of deification so far, atleast the part when it comes to sinlessness, provided that I've understood what I've read so far correctly. Would it be correct to state that the process of deification is what gives us power to resist the temptation of sin in this life?

ETA: I noticed that my sentence structure was hopelessly garbled. Hopefully it didn't introduce too much confusion.

[JonathanL]

Just to clarify where I got the idea of deification also involves the body and culminates (or perhaps takes on fuller form would be a more correct way of phrasing it) at the Last Day from:

Source: Ware, Timothy (1993-04-29). The Orthodox Church: An Introduction to Eastern Christianity (pp. 232-233). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Deification is something that involves the body. Since the human person is a unity of body and soul, and since the Incarnate Christ has saved and redeemed the whole person, it follows that ‘our body is deified at the same time as our soul’. 3 In that divine likeness which we humans are called to realize in ourselves, the body has its place. ‘Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit,’ wrote St Paul (1 Corinthians vi, 19). ‘Therefore, my brothers and sisters, I beseech you by God's mercy to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice to God' (Romans xii, 1). The full deification of the body must wait, however, until the Last Day, for in this present life the glory of the saints is as a rule an inward splendour, a splendour of the soul alone; but when the righteous rise from the dead and are clothed with a spiritual body, then their sanctity will be outwardly manifest.

© Copyright Original Source

[One Bad Pig]

It does seem to logically follow from what I've read of deification so far, atleast the part when it comes to sinlessness, provided that I've understood what I've read so far correctly. Would it be correct to state that the understanding that the process of deification is what gives us power to resist the temptation of sin in this life?

I don't think I agree with that; the process of deification allows us to see our sins more clearly, but even those who have been granted a vision of the uncreated light still struggle with temptation - albeit of a different sort; St. Siluoan said that one who had seen the uncreated light could lie beside a maiden without temptation, because re-attaining that vision was far more desirable than sex. Few people attain that in this life, however.

[JonathanL]

but there is at least a strand of Orthodox thought that the process of deification is never-ending.

I think my use of the word 'culminates' was a bad one, because it was not my intent to imply that the process ends at the Last Day, but rather that it takes on a new intensity, perhaps even quality.

[JonathanL]

I don't think I agree with that; the process of deification allows us to see our sins more clearly, but even those who have been granted a vision of the uncreated light still struggle with temptation - albeit of a different sort; St. Siluoan said that one who had seen the uncreated light could lie beside a maiden without temptation, because re-attaining that vision was far more desirable than sex. Few people attain that in this life, however.

I will have to reread the passages about deification in the books you recommended to me to see what it is that I've misunderstood.

[One Bad Pig]

I think my use of the word 'culminates' was a bad one, because it was not my intent to imply that the process ends at the Last Day, but rather that it takes on a new intensity, perhaps even quality.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

[One Bad Pig]

I will have to reread the passages about deification in the books you recommended to me to see what it is that I've misunderstood.

Picked up Norman Russell's The Doctrine of Deification in the Greek Patristic Tradition, which led to Vladimir Lossky's The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, which led me to the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, so it'll be a bit before I can get back to you on this.

[Sparrow]

Chrawnus Goes on an Adventure to Learn about Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy

Flagrantly late to the thread, but I'm doing the same thing as you are, sort of. In my case, I've been going to an Orthodox church for a while with the intention of finding out whether it's something I could ever convert to, after a while started to feel that I had unfairly dismissed Catholicism without really giving it a hearing, and have sort of doubled back and am taking RCIA and occasionally going to Catholic services . . . the result being that I can now justifiably decline Catholicism after having given it due time and consideration.

For Catholicism, I would specifically NOT recommend the book my RCIA class is using, Open Wide the Doors to Christ by Lucas R. Pollice. It is at a pretty low reading level and has occasional mistakes, so although it would be a decent basic introduction for people who want an easy read, based on the things you've mentioned reading in this thread alone, I doubt it would satisfy you intellectually. Personally, I felt my time would probably have been better spent just reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church cover-to-cover (something I have yet to do). The Catechism itself is probably your best bet; it's very thorough and is specifically designed to cover everything a person needs to know about Catholic beliefs. There are also tons of excellent web resources. Catholic Answers, which you may have already run across, is good; many of their articles are specifically checked and endorsed by the Catholic hierarchy as being free from error.

For Orthodoxy, by now you might be ready to move past introductory works, but if not, there is a five-volume catechism series by Fr. Thomas Hopko, The Orthodox Faith, that can be read online in its entirety.

About Lossky, I've only read his Orthodox Theology: An Introduction, but it was fantastic. Don't be deceived by the word "introduction"; although it is a short book, its philosophical and spiritual depth is mind-blowing.

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Ancient Faith Radio as an online resource for Orthodoxy, but here it is. Based on the small amount I have sampled, the quality of the podcasts varies. The ones I listened to by Fr. Hopko were good.

For me, also, deification is a bit of a snaggy issue; I ran across this scholarly article about where the topic of deification appears in the Early Church Fathers and what they say about it, so I thought I would toss that out in case it is helpful to you. It is not an in-depth treatment on the topic, but the way that the author identifies all the passages where the ECF talk about deification is helpful if you want to pursue ECF writings on the topic (that probably will be my next step on this issue).

Most importantly, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to go to the services. Reading books is good, and a lot of people have come to Orthodoxy that by reading about it first, and I don't want to criticize that. But Orthodoxy is something that absolutely must be experienced, and there is no way to put that in words.

Right now is a great time to experience the services, too. The presanctified liturgies (Wednesdays and Fridays during Lent) are wonderful and have a distinct atmosphere (quietness and stillness, though that's not all there is to it) that is unique to them. The Akathist to the Mother of God is beautiful if you're favorably inclined towards veneration of Mary. And of course the regular Sunday Divine Liturgy, the central worship experience of the Orthodox Church, is amazing no when you choose to go.

TL;DR As a fellow seeker, the absolute best advice I can possibly give you is simply "Go to the Orthodox Divine Services."

[One Bad Pig]

Lossky is definitely NOT introductory reading!

I agree that you should go to an Orthodox service, if you can. I have no idea if there are any in your area that use your vernacular or not; I'd guess that most Orthodox churches in Finland would either use Finn or Slavonic. My diocesan cathedral streams its services live, but that wouldn't be the same.

[JonathanL]

Lossky is definitely NOT introductory reading!

I agree that you should go to an Orthodox service, if you can. I have no idea if there are any in your area that use your vernacular or not; I'd guess that most Orthodox churches in Finland would either use Finn or Slavonic. My diocesan cathedral streams its services live, but that wouldn't be the same.

Yeah, there's a wooden chapel (or tsasouna, which I think comes from a Russian word) here in Pietarsaari which I could possibly check out. I'm not sure how often they hold services though. I guess I could just call them and ask.





Someday.

[Pentecost]

I just want to chime in that I am quietly enjoying this thread very much, and I think that perhaps after I've gone through John Wesley's work (which I'm enjoying starting at with his Journal), perhaps I will find some English translations of the Eastern Church Fathers instead of finishing Against Heresies by Irenaeus immediately.