Doubting John’s Argument Against The Resurrection.

[Doubting John]

MM:

The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Absolutely not, except perhaps the word "trouble"! And I did not quickly fall away, either. It was a process that took six years. I think 6 years indicates how rooted I was, don't you?

Let me ask you this. How would you describe your rootage? And how do you not know that by talking with me that seeds are being sown for your own doubt in the future? In Babinski's book, Leaving the Fold, and on www.ex-Christian.net there are plenty of such deconversion stories.

I tell you what, go to http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=7698 and read my Christian conversion testimony. Then tell me how rooted you think I was. Now share with me your Christian testimony and I'll tell you how your conversion stacks up to mine.

[Mountain Man]

I did not quickly fall away, either. It was a process that took six years.

Depends on your point of reference. "Quickly" does not mean "immediately".

Let me ask you this. How would you describe your rootage?

Firm.

And how do you not know that by talking with me that seeds are being sown for your own doubt in the future?

Your arguments seem largely ignorant of Christian beliefs and as a result are not terribly persuasive.

I tell you what, go to http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-item?item=7698 and read my Christian conversion testimony. Then tell me how rooted you think I was. Now share with me your Christian testimony and I'll tell you how your conversion stacks up to mine.

It's an interesting testimony, but you know what I don't see? I don't see repentence. You talk about passion, passion, and more passion, but you never once mentioned humble and heartfelt repetence that compelled you to throw yourself on the mercy and forgiveness of God.

My conversion testimony is very simple compared to yours: I grew up in a Christian home and went to church every Sunday. One morning on the way to church, I realized that I was a sinner and that I needed God's forgiveness, so in the manner taught in the Bible, I confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. I was six years old at the time.

You see, it's not the amount of theological schooling you have or the height of your passion that makes you a Christian, it's humble repentence.

[Doubting John]

MM:

It's an interesting testimony, but you know what I don't see? I don't see repentence. You talk about passion, passion, and more passion, but you never once mentioned humble and heartfelt repetence that compelled you to throw yourself on the mercy and forgiveness of God.

So, at first you were questioning what I meant by "faith," and now you're questioning my former Christianity because you claim I didn't use the word "repentance." Where will it stop?

But, as far as repentence goes, the words for repentence, 1) metanoeo, literally means to "perceive afterwards," meta "after", implying change, and noeo, "to perceive" (after the word nous, the mind, which is the seat of moral reflection. 2) metanoia, means "after-thought," or "a change of mind," and is used in conjunction with changing one's mind away from sin and evil.

Now look at my Christian testimony. "God turned my life around," I said. "My life radically changed," I said. And I spelled out many different changes in my lifestyle. Now how do you ever expect to read and interpret the Bible if you cannot read and interpret what someone writes? I've said this before to you in the thread "Commentary on Ex-Christian testimonies, haven't I? It's beginning to be a habit with you not understanding what someone writes. The interpretation skills are the same, involving context, context, context. And all linguistic professors tell us that the basic unit of meaning is not the word, but the sentence, but I don't suppose you'd know what that means for our discussion here. Among other things this means that a sentence can convey the meaning of a word that isn't specifically written.

So let's say I didn't use your one word (and I'm not re-reading it to see if I did or didn't). Big deal. Let's say also that in the light of your criticism here I revise the book and then add the word "repentence" to describe all of the changes God made in my life? Would that satisfy you? You'd no doubt say I just added it to satisfy you, but the truth is that my life radically changed precisely because I repented of my sins, and the word "repentence" does accurately describe what I did. But you fault me because I didn't use a specific word. One other Christian specified that I didn't say something else, and another criticized me because I didn't say something else. Nit pickers are you all!

So let's take a look at what you said.

My conversion testimony is very simple compared to yours: I grew up in a Christian home and went to church every Sunday. One morning on the way to church, I realized that I was a sinner and that I needed God's forgiveness, so in the manner taught in the Bible, I confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. I was six years old at the time.

Where's the word "repentence" here? And you never mentioned that you had a personal relationship with God, either. Nothing was ever said about your faith (remember our earlier posts?), nor who Jesus Christ was to you, nor anything about Jesus' resurrection that brought victory over sin, death and the devil. And so on, and so on.

Oh, you have never yet admitted you were wrong yet, so I fully expect you to say that the phrase: "in the manner taught in the Bible" covers everything else. But it doesn't, because I don't really know what you think that is, now do I?

Just stop your probing. You are way off base here. And dead wrong about me. I'm just going to stop frustrating myself trying to answer someone who refuses to see.

[Doubting John]

Jason meet Fredy.

Why ? I know what it means, you are the moron that clearly doesn't. And I see no reason to do your homework for you as you have demonstrated repeatedly that you don't have a clue and are not interested in learning.

But I did spell out what "repentence" was, didn't I?

But I think you are the one who cannot properly exegete Hebrews 11:1, nor tell me what the Greek word pistis means there. You did know which Greek word the English word "faith" there comes from didn't you? Well, tell me more.... I just am repulsed by the demand that I do so, that's all. If you don't think I can, then you tell me if you can.

Oh, and while you're at it. Tell me your Christian conversion story, and let's see how you do. Then we'll see how someone who doubts it could nit pick it apart. Go ahead, MM tried it, and would be judged as I was. Now you try it.

And while I am at it, I can make a case against you being a Christian right now--a better one than you can make against me being a former Christian.

Letter to Jason the supposed Christian:

You think you believe but you really don't. You see, your behavior itself tells on you. You don't live every waking hour of every day the way you would if you truly believed. I don't even have to know you, but you probably peek at pornography on the web--say it isn't so?--you don't give your money to Christian causes like you would if you truly believed. You don't pray enough, and you don't read the Bible like you should, or evangelize as you know you should, if you truly believed that unbelievers will be eternally punished for their unbelief. You probably have someone in your life that rubs you wrong—a relative?—that you simply cannot forgive, and you may even dislike someone to the point where you may even hate them. You have guilt running through your veins for all of this and yet you claim that you stand forgiven in the eyes of God—is that not a contradiction?

It's you who are in denial. You simply are going through the motions because of the social benefit of people whom you respect who are your helpers through life. And you need some father godlike figure in the sky so you can feel secure and comforted, so you created this father figure in your mind. But maybe he just doesn't exist and deep down you know this.

Now, what about my case? Do you really believe or not? I think my case is much stronger than yours, and yet I'm willing to take your statements of faith at face value and grant them. Why won't you do that for me?

--End of letter.

One last thing. Notice how I responded to you and compare that with how you responded to me. Who has the most self-restraint here? Who shows the most respect here? Who is following the Golden Rule better here? The Christian--you, or the skeptic--me.

You name calling reminds me of this quote: "If you can't answer a man's argument you can still call him names." And while you will disagree with me on the next quote, this is how I feel: "A wise man may look ridiculous in the company of fools."

[jason]

But I think you are the one who cannot properly exegete Hebrews 11:1, nor tell me what the Greek word pistis means there. You did know which Greek word the English word "faith" there comes from didn't you? Well, tell me more.... I just am repulsed by the demand that I do so, that's all. If you don't think I can, then you tell me if you can.

Of course I can. Pistis is a greek word with a number of different shades of meaning.

But in this case the author of Hebrews is making reference to not some blind faith as you seem to suggest. This should be obvious from the next couple of verses. Which one of the people mentioned in the rest of the chapter had a blind faith ? Which one did not already have good reason for trusting God to be good to his word based on the evidence they already had to hand ? Faith in this context is trusting in God to honour his promise, after you already have good reason to trust him. As is demonstrated by how the word is used and who it is applied to in the following verses.

Oh, and while you're at it. Tell me your Christian conversion story

Why ? Do you think it would be relevant to the question of whether or not Christ actually rose from the dead ?

You think you believe but you really don't. You see, your behavior itself tells on you. You don't live every waking hour of every day the way you would if you truly believed.

Of course I don't. That is why I need repentance.

But you have inspired me to examine parts of my life, thanks.

One last thing. Notice how I responded to you and compare that with how you responded to me.

Yes, which is why I removed my post.

Jason

[Mountain Man]

So, at first you were questioning what I meant by "faith," and now you're questioning my former Christianity because you claim I didn't use the word "repentance."

The meaning of the word "faith" was a seperate issue (and one you still haven't answered). You brought up your testimony to "prove" that you were a Christian, and I noticed in your testimony that you didn't mention having repented. That's all. If you don't want people critiquing your book then maybe you should stop the hard sell.

But, as far as repentence goes, the words for repentence, 1) metanoeo, literally means to "perceive afterwards," meta "after", implying change, and noeo, "to perceive" (after the word nous, the mind, which is the seat of moral reflection. 2) metanoia, means "after-thought," or "a change of mind," and is used in conjunction with changing one's mind away from sin and evil.

Now look at my Christian testimony. "God turned my life around," I said. "My life radically changed," I said. And I spelled out many different changes in my lifestyle.

Does change necessarily imply repentence? One can change his behavior because he thinks it is expected but still not repent. It just seemed to me that for the purposes of your book, you were trying awefully hard, a little too hard perhaps, to convince your readers that you really were a Christian.

Let's say also that in the light of your criticism here I revise the book and then add the word "repentence" to describe all of the changes God made in my life? Would that satisfy you?

It's not me you have to worry about. The question is, could you do it and still be honest with yourself?

But you fault me because I didn't use a specific word.

It's not the use of a specific word that I'm worried about. It was the overall tone. You went on and on about being passionate and dedicating yourself to "the Lord's work", but I didn't get the impression that you changed because you had repented, or at least that's how it came across on the written page. Maybe this was deliberate. Perhaps you didn't want your conversion to Christianity to be too persuasive and thus undermine the intent of your book which was to lead people away from Christ rather than to him.

So let's take a look at what you said.

. . .

Where's the word "repentence" here?

"One morning on the way to church, I realized that I was a sinner and that I needed God's forgiveness" = repentence

And you never mentioned that you had a personal relationship with God, either.

That came later. My repentence just got me on the right path.

Nothing was ever said about your faith (remember our earlier posts?)

"I confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ" = faith

...nor who Jesus Christ was to you, nor anything about Jesus' resurrection that brought victory over sin, death and the devil.

Did you want my personal conversion story or a dissertation on Christian theology?

Oh, you have never yet admitted you were wrong yet...

What you think "I realized that I was a sinner" means?

...so I fully expect you to say that the phrase: "in the manner taught in the Bible" covers everything else. But it doesn't, because I don't really know what you think that is, now do I?

I had assumed that as a former Christian you would know. Guess I was wrong (see, I can admit when I'm wrong!). Very simply, I meant:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
-Romans 10:9-10

I'm just going to stop frustrating myself...

Based on various posts to me and others, I get the feeling you don't much like having your "deconversion" story challenged. If that's the case then Tweb may not be the place for you.

[LGM]

Doubting John,

Welcome to the Tweb asylum, where those who are most insecure in their beliefs, can’t allow themselves to consider that a True^TM Christian would ever apostatize. It’s way too threatening for their frightened Christian mind virus to even contemplate. So the virus will continue to defend itself and search for any semantic nuance in your posts to assure itself you were never actually a True^TM Christian to begin with.

Ironically, several folks here, including the lovable and cuddly Jason, were allegedly True^TM atheists at one time. Before their incredibly rational, reasonable minds calmly examined all the evidence for Christianity, and independently arrived at the conclusion that the resurrection is 97 percent likely to have happened!…just like Swineburn! Coincidence? I don't think so...

Of course none of them actually ever worshipped Charles Darwin, or helped Stalin or Mao kill anyone, or refused to accept Christmas presents...but we still must accept them at their word, that they were once True^TM Atheists.

[Hail Mary]

I just don't think neither you nor MM fully grasp what I said above. I approached the Bible with the same faith you do now. And yet, even when doing this, and starting out with a presumption of faith, the reasons didn't support it. As an apologist on behalf of Christianity I wanted the reasons to win hands down.

So what I'm saying here, is that even if you approach Christianity with faith, the reasons are not there to support that faith. And while I cannot convince you of this at your stage of faith, it is something I am so confident in that Pascal's wager does not affect me.

Its going to be difficult (if not impossible) to find reasons to support your faith. Faith is a leap beyond reason and you're trying to pull faith back into the logical realm, and then somehow try to analyze it.

[Doubting John]

MM:

Your last post is really off target in many ways. You didn't actually respond to the main points of what I have been saying. When I corner you then you actually comment on something else. These things are know as "red herrings," and I will not frustrate myself any longer trying to teach you how to read and to analyse, except here in this one post.

You brought up your testimony to "prove" that you were a Christian

Did I? Prove? Weren't you the one who challenged it when I merely stated it? And weren't you the one that questioned it down to this post, ever since I mentioned it?

It was the overall tone

It just seemed to me

I didn't get the impression

Do you realize what you're doing here with these phrases? The "principle of charity" calls upon exegetes to place upon the text the best possible interpretation possible before criticizing it. Did you do that? Now I'm sure you will say you did that, but claiming you did will only reveal your ignorance to me, so don't bother.

It's not me you have to worry about. The question is, could you do it and still be honest with yourself?

Was that the real question here? I'm arguing against you by claiming that there's probably nothing I could say to convince you that I am a former Christian. Did that point somehow escape your attention?

Besides, do you really think for a moment that I'm not honest about this? [Do you remember what the "this" is I'm talking about?] Why would you think I'm not being honest with you? I don't think that of your conversion story, so why do you insist on thinking that of me, although the more you accuse me of this the more I think that of you. [Do you remember the "that" that I'm referring to?]


When I tell you my conversion story you ask me this:

Does change necessarily imply repentence?

When it's absolutely clear what I meant.

But when I ask the same kinds of skeptical questions about your conversion you ask me this:

What you think "I realized that I was a sinner" means?

I have little doubt that you are a believer--why else would you be here arguing as you do? So how does it feel when I do the same thing to you?

But you missed my point again. You are defending your conversion story to me, which is not what I asked for, since I believe you are. I'm just showing you an example of what you have done to me by questioning mine.

My point is that I can do the same thing to you that you do to me, and yet I believe you are a Christian even though you don't use the "correct" words, whereas you won't allow me anything. And no, I don't want a theology dissertation on your story, but you seem to be asking me for one. Did that point get lost in your head somewhere?

I had assumed that as a former Christian you would know. Guess I was wrong (see, I can admit when I'm wrong!).

What? What? What? You assumed, what? Isn't that what you question me about? Or are you being sarcastic? Sarcasm it is. So then, I suppose the fact that you admitted you're wrong is sarcasm too, eh?

Based on various posts to me and others, I get the feeling you don't much like having your "deconversion" story challenged.

Do you like having your Christian conversion story challenged? It could get a little personal if I continued to challenge your Christian conversion story, now wouldn't it?

But after all of this, I've noticed that you've been with me through this whole thread, at every stage of it. You are intrigued by me, aren't you? Why, I wonder? My arguments are lame you say, but here you are. Why? Do you hope to re-convert me? Do you want to test your thinking skills against me? Why would you waste another day arguing with me so that you can once again nominate me for most irritating Twebber? You're not getting anywhere with me. And with the way you understand what I write and how you subsequently argue with me, you won't either. So what gives? Exactly why did you stay with me through this thread? It's my thread, that's why I'm here.

[Mountain Man]

In the words of William Shakespeare, "Methinks thou dost protest too much."

The Bible says that those who "fall away" do so because their faith was not grounded and they allowed themselves to be deceived. I'm sorry, but I'm going to trust the word of God over your ardent claims that "I was a solidly grounded Christian, honest!"

[Doubting John]

MM:

In the words of William Shakespeare, "Methinks thou dost protest too much."

The Bible says that those who "fall away" do so because their faith was not grounded and they allowed themselves to be deceived. I'm sorry, but I'm going to trust the word of God over your ardent claims that "I was a solidly grounded Christian, honest!"

So your choice is between what you interpret the Bible to say and what I say? Well of course, I lose hands down now, don't I? I never even had a chance, did I?

And yet, you had to feel the force of my argument somewhat (above).


And next time from the outset, would you just tell me things like you just now told me, so I won't waste my time on you?

Well, stay in your delusion then.

[Tophet]

Yo, DJ:

Did you not know,

Scripture Verse:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

So your choice is between what you interpret the Bible to say.

Actually, Mountain Man cited Scripture itself, not his interpretation of it. Remember?

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 13:20-21
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

and what I say?

What you said was,

From http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...8&postcount=76
Absolutely not, except perhaps the word "trouble"!

Thereby acknowledging the point!

And speaking of falling away, were you not aware of these other Scriptures?

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 11:6
"Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

Matthew 13:21
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Mark 4:17
But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 7:23
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

If you were firmly rooted, John, how could you fall away? Could it be because you were never rooted in the first place?

Well of course, I lose hands down now, don't I?

Scripture Verse:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Do you claim to have greater authority than Jesus, John?

I never even had a chance, did I?

Scripture Verse:

Hebrews 6
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Besides, do you really think for a moment that I'm not honest about this?

Do you have a reputation for honesty, John?

Remember what you said earlier?

From http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...4&postcount=68

But at this point I'll not cast my pearls before the swine further here with you on the topic of whether or not I was a true Christian.

and

From http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...4&postcount=78

I'm just going to stop frustrating myself trying to answer someone who refuses to see.

So why do you do the opposite of what you say you're going to do?

Well, stay in your delusion then.

So when you claim you accepted Jesus into your heart, were you being delusional, John?

Now I'll address one of your other tidbits:

Willi Marxsen: “The conclusion is inescapable: a synchronizing harmony of the different accounts of the Resurrection proves to be impossible.” The Resurrection of Jesus of Nazereth, (p. 74).

False. Harvard law professor Simon Greenleaf harmonized them over a hundred years ago. Click on this: http://www.tektonics.org/harmonize/greenharmony.htm

And read it. I dare you.

[Doubting John]

Tophet,

So you quote the Bible that says people can fall away.

And it also indicates that the reason people fall away is because they weren't well grounded.

But I stand as a testimony against those passages. I really do.

And apparently you've read through this part of the thread, so there's nothing else I can say.

It seems as though the Bible has given you the delusional attitude that if one is a well grounded and fully informed Christian, then he or she cannot fall away. How could they--because the Christian faith is the truth and it wins in the marketplace of ideas hands down. But of course, the Bible has given you other delusions as well.

I could have people get on TWEB and tell you how my ministry changed their lives. I have at least two "Timothy's" in the ministry, too. I have saved marriages and helped people into the Christian faith, too. (I don't say "God used me to do this" anymore, but at one time I did).

I have dated published Christian essays, and many minister friends would would testify on my behalf, including and my ordaining minister, and William Lane Craig, if you ever talk to him at a conference.

The bottom line is that you didn't know me then, so it's easy to say otherwise. Well keep with easy. But I swear you'd have to re-evaluate the Bible, if you just knew me before. Just lucky for you, I guess, that way you have no religious discomfort.

And by the way, I do seem to change my mind, but that's not the same as telling a lie. I suppose it's my way of expressing frustration, and I should watch out for that in the future.

I'll read the essay link.

Maybe now we can get back to the main issue here.

[Tophet]

Howdy, John:

You didn't answer this question. Remember?

If you were firmly rooted, John, how could you fall away? Could it be because you were never rooted in the first place?

I await your answer.

So you quote the Bible that says people can fall away.

And it also indicates that the reason people fall away is because they weren't well grounded.

But I stand as a testimony against those passages. I really do.

Shall we put that to a test?

Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

How does that verse not apply to you?

Matthew 13:20-21
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

How does that verse not apply to you?

It was a process that took six years. I think 6 years indicates how rooted I was, don't you?

John, you wrote,

There are three major experiences that happened in my life that changed my thinking. They all happened in the space of about five years, from 1991-1994.

1991-1994 is not six years. It's not even five years. Try four. But the claim that you changed "from minister to honest doubter" indicates you weren't rooted at all.

You write that God made a difference in your life, then you say he doesn't exist. John, how can God exist and not exist? Explain.

It seems as though the Bible has given you the delusional attitude that if one is a well grounded and fully informed Christian, then he or she cannot fall away.

Not just the Bible, John. Logic. If you were well grounded and fully informed as a Christian, you would still be a Christian -- assuming you were ever one in the first place. But even you have admitted you are not fully informed.

How could they--because the Christian faith is the truth and it wins in the marketplace of ideas hands down. But of course, the Bible has given you other delusions as well.

Yes, yes, another example of circular reasoning. "The Bible has given you other delusions as well." Why? "The Bible has given you other delusions as well." You know what circular reasoning is, don't you, John?

I could have people get on TWEB and tell you how my ministry changed their lives. ... (I don't say "God used me to do this" anymore, but at one time I did).

That is the Christian paradigm, John.

The bottom line is that you didn't know me then, so it's easy to say otherwise.

No, the bottom line is, who has greater integrity? You, or Jesus Christ? Certainly not you.

Well keep with easy. But I swear you'd have to re-evaluate the Bible, if you just knew me before. Just lucky for you, I guess, that way you have no religious discomfort.

No, John. If you never born again, and if you never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place, how could you have been a Christian?

Scripture Verse:

2 Timothy
11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

I'll read the essay link. Maybe now we can get back to the main issue here.

Super! So what's your dare for me?