The truth about limited atonement.

[rhutchin]

The "U" is for unconditional. But the election is conditional upon God's sovereign foreknowledge through the sanctification of the Spirit, the election being unmerited on the part of God's elect.

You need to make that argument from Scripture that election is conditional. For now, you are expressing an opinion of what you choose to believe.

Ephesians 1 has, "...God works all things after the counsel of his own will:" Gods' choices on election are unconditional in the sense that they are not influenced by anything people do or anything that happens outside Himself. They are conditional only on God and what He wants to do.

[rhutchin]

All means ALL. ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.

The term, "all," has different meanings related to context. One context, from Ephesians 3, is that "all" means "not the Jew only but the gentile also." Thus, all have sinned - both the Jew and the gentile.

"What then? are we (Jews) better than they (the gentiles)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;...For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

1 Tim 2:4 and surrounding context shows that 1) we are to pray for all people, believer and non-believer, 2) We are to pray for all leaders and people in authority, believer and non-believer, 3) That God desires everyone to come to Him through repentance, and 4) Jesus died for all men, believer and non-believer.

This context does not establish the definition of "all." It only applies that which Paul has defined earlier in Ephesians 3.

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief...I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;...For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved," The "all" here refers to all - both Jew and gentile - being sinners. From Romans, Paul argued that there was no difference between the Jew and the gentile - all are sinners. Paul's mindset - because of the mystery revealed to him - is that the Jews are not the only ones who can be saved as he had been taught. A central theme in Paul's letters is that salvation is not just for the Jew but for the gentile also - God will have both Jew and gentile to be saved.

You have offered nothing to cause us to think that Paul might be thinking something else.

[rhutchin]

The meaning of 'all' in 1 Timothy 2:4 is determined by the context of Ephesians 3?????


I am guessing this is a typo...right?

No typo. Ephesians 3 establishes Paul's mindset in all his letters. Paul's background and training - which he describes in his letters - would cause him to think that the Jews were God's privileged people and that gentiles were dogs, unregenerate and despised by God. In Ephesians 3, Paul explains the revelation of the mystery revealed to him - this revelation turned all his religious training upside down and dominates his thinking as he writes his letters.

[Bill the Cat]

The term, "all," has different meanings related to context. One context, from Ephesians 3, is that "all" means "not the Jew only but the gentile also." Thus, all have sinned - both the Jew and the gentile.

Exactly my point. Without exception. ALL have sinned. Not just gentiles. Not just Jews. Everyone. Every son of Adam and every daughter of Eve (to borrow a few CS Lewis terms). Or are you suggesting that there may have been a few who never sinned, but a insignificant number to consider?

"What then? are we (Jews) better than they (the gentiles)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;...For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Exactly as I said. Unless you think there is another category for the sinless ones? Or that these categories do not encompass every single human on earth.

This context does not establish the definition of "all."

It most certainly does. That's what context means.

It only applies that which Paul has defined earlier in Ephesians 3.

Correct. Paul was consistent with his usage of who "ALL" were. Every person on earth, whether Jew or gentile. Without exception.

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief...I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;...For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved," The "all" here refers to all - both Jew and gentile - being sinners. From Romans, Paul argued that there was no difference between the Jew and the gentile - all are sinners. Paul's mindset - because of the mystery revealed to him - is that the Jews are not the only ones who can be saved as he had been taught. A central theme in Paul's letters is that salvation is not just for the Jew but for the gentile also - God will have both Jew and gentile to be saved.

But Paul NEVER says "ALL" will be saved, so the context of 1 Tim 2:4 still remains that God desires that everyone (i.e. every single human being in every category) repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

You have offered nothing to cause us to think that Paul might be thinking something else.

You have offered nothing to cause us to think that Paul meant something other than every single person in 1 Tim 2:4 just like he meant in 1 Tim 2:1. Or are you going to suggest that Paul didn't really want Timothy to pray for everyone?

[phat8594]

So this is what I said:

The meaning of 'all' in 1 Timothy 2:4 is determined by the context of Ephesians 3?????


I am guessing this is a typo...right?

To which you said:

No typo. Ephesians 3 establishes Paul's mindset in all his letters.

Which made me (since it goes against all the basic principles of solid exegesis and hermeneutics)

And yet, you just said:

The term, "all," has different meanings related to context. One context, from Ephesians 3, is that "all" means "not the Jew only but the gentile also." Thus, all have sinned - both the Jew and the gentile.

Which made me

So which one is it?

[phat8594]

You need to make that argument from Scripture that election is conditional.

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's about as clear a condition if any.

Ephesians 1 has, "...God works all things after the counsel of his own will:" Gods' choices on election are unconditional in the sense that they are not influenced by anything people do or anything that happens outside Himself. They are conditional only on God and what He wants to do.

And it seems as though Paul would disagree with you:

Acts 16:30-34
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God

After all, it seems that what God has decided in His sovereign will to do - is to give salvation to all who call on Him:

Romans 10:12-13
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For t“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

[rhutchin]

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's about as clear a condition if any.



And it seems as though Paul would disagree with you:

Acts 16:30-34
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God

After all, it seems that what God has decided in His sovereign will to do - is to give salvation to all who call on Him:

Romans 10:12-13
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For t“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You have essentially excised verses from their context in order to make your point. Now let's put Romans 10 back into context.

Paul precedes v9 with v8, "'The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:" The word of faith (the gospel) that Paul preaches is then given in v9 - "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." In 13, Paul adds this, "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” That is the basic gospel presentation preached by Paul.

Then Paul addresses issues:

1. How can people call on the one they have not believed in? (v14) Well, the gospel must be preached. Thus, people who do not hear the gospel preached cannot be saved. Ignorance of the gospel leads to hell.
2. "...not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” (v16) Well, faith is needed to believe the gospel. Without faith, a person cannot be saved. But faith comes form the gospel being preached.
3. When the gospel is preached, why don't people hear it (v18); why don't they understand it (v19); Has God rejected those who don't hear or understand? (11:1) To which God responds, I have a remnant (My elect) chosen by grace.

So, the chicken and egg problem. Do people believe the gospel because they are God's remnant - His elect - or do they become God's elect by believing?

In John 16, Jesus speaks of the Comforter who would come after His death and convict the world of sin. By world, Christ means not just the Jews but gentiles also. We know that the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) convicts God's elect of their sin with the result that they then confess Christ and believe God raised Him from the dead. Does the Holy Spirit convict others? Apparently not since their exhibit no response to the preaching of the gospel. From this we can conclude that God has chosen a remnant to whom He sends His Spirit to convict them of sin whereupon, through the preaching of the gospel, they believe and call on God to be saved.

Is salvation conditional? Is the expression of faith and belief the natural consequences of God's working in His elect to convict them of sin and to give them the ability to hear and understand the gospel? One conclusion is that God's elect merely do what comes naturally once God extends grace to them by His Spirit and it would be erroneous to condition salvation on man's response as God's elect always respond positively to the preaching of the gospel.

[rhutchin]

So this is what I said:
To which you said:
Which made me (since it goes against all the basic principles of solid exegesis and hermeneutics)
And yet, you just said:
Which made me
So which one is it?

What are the "basic principles of solid exegesis and hermeneutics"? Are they not that we preserve context as we seek to understand the Scriptures. In Ephesians 3, Paul describes the great mystery that was revealed to him - that the gospel was not just for the Jew but was for the gentile also. This now establishes his mindset as he proclaims the gospel - God wants both Jews and gentiles to be saved.

Thus when we read, "God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," we maintain context and understand that Paul means both Jews and gentiles when He says, "all."

There are instances where context dictates otherwise.

"...all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,..." (1 Corinth 1:2) "All" refers to believers.
"...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,..." (1 Corinth 15:51) "All" refers to believers.

You can go through the instance of "all" in Paul's letters and pretty much determine which instances do not refer to "Jew and gentile."

[Bill the Cat]

What are the "basic principles of solid exegesis and hermeneutics"? Are they not that we preserve context as we seek to understand the Scriptures. In Ephesians 3, Paul describes the great mystery that was revealed to him - that the gospel was not just for the Jew but was for the gentile also. This now establishes his mindset as he proclaims the gospel - God wants both Jews and gentiles to be saved.

Thus when we read, "God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," we maintain context and understand that Paul means both Jews and gentiles when He says, "all."

There are instances where context dictates otherwise.

"...all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,..." (1 Corinth 1:2) "All" refers to believers.
"...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,..." (1 Corinth 15:51) "All" refers to believers.

You can go through the instance of "all" in Paul's letters and pretty much determine which instances do not refer to "Jew and gentile."

The problem is that you are ASSUMING that a foreign context from another letter trumps the immediate context of the Timothy passage. It's a violation of basic exegetical practice.

[phat8594]

The problem is that you are ASSUMING that a foreign context from another letter trumps the immediate context of the Timothy passage. It's a violation of basic exegetical practice.

Yep. Exactly.

[phat8594]

You have essentially excised verses from their context in order to make your point.

Actually - the context doesn't change the plain meaning of the verse there. I agree that context is incredibly important -- but here the verse stands within the context and fits the context.

IF is a conditional word. No chicken or egg problem here. The Bible ALWAYS puts faith BEFORE salvation. The chicken or egg problem only comes up when a theology is superimposed upon the text so that the text 'cannot' mean what it clearly says.

To which God responds, I have a remnant (My elect) chosen by grace.

Romans 11:4-5
But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

So why were they chosen? The Bible is clear, even here, that grace does not operate against the will of man but operates towards those men who have chosen in faith to align themselves with God. In other words, just as Romans 10 says - 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' So, in context of Romans, we see that the remnant of Israel have been chosen because they are the ones that have pursued God by faith rather than pursuing a works based righteousness of their own.

And the original verse in 1 Kings is much the same:

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

So saving grace, as described here, is not an irresistible grace but a grace towards those who believe and call on the name of the Lord.

[37818]

You need to make that argument from Scripture that election is conditional. For now, you are expressing an opinion of what you choose to believe.

Ephesians 1 has, "...God works all things after the counsel of his own will:" Gods' choices on election are unconditional in the sense that they are not influenced by anything people do or anything that happens outside Himself. They are conditional only on God and what He wants to do.

There is no doubt that God works all things after the counsel of his own will.

" . . because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.

[37818]

. . .
Through God's foreknowledge of our choices, yes. . .

God is omniscient. God's foreknowledge is just that, knowing those who are His. Foreknowledge does not mean foreseeing.

[Littlejoe]

God is omniscient. God's foreknowledge is just that, knowing those who are His. Foreknowledge does not mean foreseeing.

I must admit, I am confused by this. I do not see an appreciable difference in the two. However, in order to not derail this thread, I have created this one to discuss it.

[Bill the Cat]

God is omniscient. God's foreknowledge is just that, knowing those who are His. Foreknowledge does not mean foreseeing.

Yes it does. He knows every event before it ever happened.