Mormon-style Salvation

[Krusader]

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "Salvation is twofold: General - that which comes to ALL men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ - and Individual - that which man MERITS through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel," D. of S., Vol. 1, pg. 134

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, "All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected," What the Mormons Think of Christ, pg. 28

Besides changing the method of atonement from the cross to the garden, or the cross and the garden, which is totally contrary to anything found in the NT which over and over again teaches us that atonement was by Christ's DEATH on the cross, the Mormons have also changed the meaning of the word salvation.

Definitions of words are very important when dealing with Mormons or members of any other pseudo-Christian groups. When you tell a Mormon you are "saved," he's thinking, "okay, he'll be resurrected."

When you tell a Mormon that the Bible clearly states we are saved by grace and not by works, the Mormon can agree with you - since the resurrection of all men has been made possible by Christ's atonement, and is available to all men APART from, faith in Christ.

When a Christian says, "I'm saved," the Christian means he has been saved from the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God), been born-again spiritually, and transferred from the Kingdom of Satan to the Kingdom of God. For the Christian, this salvation is not possible without faith in Jesus Christ, Who said He was the "only way" to the Father.

For the Mormon, of course, salvation is possible without faith in Christ, if by salvation you simply mean resurrection (as McConkie has stated).

Comments?

[gratitude]

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "Salvation is twofold: General - that which comes to ALL men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ - and Individual - that which man MERITS through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel," D. of S., Vol. 1, pg. 134

Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, "All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected," What the Mormons Think of Christ, pg. 28

Actually, that is only part of what they state the grace of Christ will save us from.

In that same address, Joseph Fielding Smith stated:
Through his atonement we were bought from death and hell. Death and hell were paid-paid in full-and Christ was the only one who could pay that debt.
(p. 125

(Christ) carried, in some way that I cannot understand and you cannot understand, the burden of the combined weight of the sins of the world.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 129)

Christ paid the debt of my sins
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 131)

We cannot realize the price he had to pay...We will never be able to pay the debt.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 132)

Here President Joseph F. Smith refutes the notion that somehow we can buy our way into heaven.

The "What the Mormons Think of Christ" tract explains that grace is two-fold
In addition to this redemption from death, all men, by the grace of God, have the power to gain eternal life. This is called salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
("What the Mormons Think of Christ," in Pamphlets: Latter-day Tracts, 28.)

When you tell a "Mormon" that you are saved, well, they may not fully know what you mean. But they might. That is not a phrase that is used that much in Church.

The Church recently published a book outlining numerous doctrines of the Church. In it, they addressed salvation:
In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms saved and salvation have various meanings. According to these meanings, your answer to the question “Have you been saved?” will be either “Yes” or “Yes, but with conditions.”

It then lists six different meanings of the word salvation:
1. Salvation from Physical Death (1 Corinthians 15:22)
2. Salvation from Sin (2 Corinthians 7:10)
3. Being Born Again (John 3:3 and Mark 16:16)
4. Salvation from Ignorance (John 8:12 and Ephesians 6:17)
5. Salvation from being denied a place in what most Christians would call Heaven
6. Eternal Life, or Exaltation (John 17:3 and 2 Timothy 2:10)

Again, salvation meaning resurrection is only one of the definitions. None of these are possible without the grace of Jesus Christ, as stated by Joseph F. Smith.

So when you tell a "Mormon" that you have been saved, explain to them what you mean. Both of you will greatly benefit from the exchange!

Sincerely,

Gratitude

[Krusader]

Actually, that is only part of what they state the grace of Christ will save us from.

In that same address, Joseph Fielding Smith stated:
Through his atonement we were bought from death and hell. Death and hell were paid-paid in full-and Christ was the only one who could pay that debt.
(p. 125

(Christ) carried, in some way that I cannot understand and you cannot understand, the burden of the combined weight of the sins of the world.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 129)

Christ paid the debt of my sins
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p.p. 131)

We cannot realize the price he had to pay...We will never be able to pay the debt.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 132)

Here President Joseph F. Smith refutes the notion that somehow we can buy our way into heaven.

The "What the Mormons Think of Christ" tract explains that grace is two-fold
In addition to this redemption from death, all men, by the grace of God, have the power to gain eternal life. This is called salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
("What the Mormons Think of Christ," in Pamphlets: Latter-day Tracts, 28.)

When you tell a "Mormon" that you are saved, well, they may not fully know what you mean. But they might. That is not a phrase that is used that much in Church.

The Church recently published a book outlining numerous doctrines of the Church. In it, they addressed salvation:
In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms saved and salvation have various meanings. According to these meanings, your answer to the question “Have you been saved?” will be either “Yes” or “Yes, but with conditions.”

It then lists six different meanings of the word salvation:
1. Salvation from Physical Death (1 Corinthians 15:22)
2. Salvation from Sin (2 Corinthians 7:10)
3. Being Born Again (John 3:3 and Mark 16:16)
4. Salvation from Ignorance (John 8:12 and Ephesians 6:17)
5. Salvation from being denied a place in what most Christians would call Heaven
6. Eternal Life, or Exaltation (John 17:3 and 2 Timothy 2:10)

Again, salvation meaning resurrection is only one of the definitions. None of these are possible without the grace of Jesus Christ, as stated by Joseph F. Smith.

So when you tell a "Mormon" that you have been saved, explain to them what you mean. Both of you will greatly benefit from the exchange!

Sincerely,

Gratitude

I have told many Mormons that I'm a born-again Christian. They tell me, "oh, I'm born-again, too." "When were you born-again?" I ask. Invariably I will get the following responses:

I was born-again when I was baptized.
I'm not sure, I've always been in the Church.
Or, dead silence.

Bruce McConkie in his book, Mormon Doctrine, pg. 287, states: "Certain saved by grace alone FANATICS flatter their followers into believing they can be saved through no act other than confessing Christ with their lips."

Regardless of how McConkie misconstrues Christian doctrine, I hope that before he passed from this life, he recalled the words of the New Testament:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved," Roman 10:9.

So, from this fanatic to you, Gratitude, consider well the words of those who represent your belief-system, and how they compare with the inspired Word of God.

[Conductor42]

Besides changing the method of atonement from the cross to the garden, or the cross and the garden, which is totally contrary to anything found in the NT which over and over again teaches us that atonement was by Christ's DEATH on the cross, the Mormons have also changed the meaning of the word salvation.

Historical Christianity did the same things - changing methods of "atonement" contrary to the Torah, etc. What's new?

[Nosnomis]

Bruce McConkie in his book, Mormon Doctrine, pg. 287, states: "Certain saved by grace alone FANATICS flatter their followers into believing they can be saved through no act other than confessing Christ with their lips."

Regardless of how McConkie misconstrues Christian doctrine, I hope that before he passed from this life, he recalled the words of the New Testament:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved," Roman 10:9.

So would you say that if you confessed Christ, you would then be free to do whatever you wanted? Because that was what McConkie was warning against. He was warning against those who believed that they were saved just by confessing Christ, and would then go out and commit sins.

It says in James 2:19, that the Devils also believe in God, and tremble. Does this mean that they will receive salvation? In fact, the entire chapter of James 2 talks about the importance of works.

[!Fluffy!]

So would you say that if you confessed Christ, you would then be free to do whatever you wanted? Because that was what McConkie was warning against. He was warning against those who believed that they were saved just by confessing Christ, and would then go out and commit sins.

It says in James 2:19, that the Devils also believe in God, and tremble. Does this mean that they will receive salvation? In fact, the entire chapter of James 2 talks about the importance of works.

If I believe I have been redeemed because Christ died on the cross for me, that he rose from the dead, that I am saved from Hell and eternal separation from God through Christ; if I believe that Christ bought and paid for me, and I publicly claim Him as my Lord and Savior, will I be saved or am I saved?

[gratitude]

If I believe I have been redeemed because Christ died on the cross for me, that he rose from the dead, that I am saved from Hell and eternal separation from God through Christ; if I believe that Christ bought and paid for me, and I publicly claim Him as my Lord and Savior, will I be saved or am I saved?

Welcome, Chick!

Define what you mean by "saved."

I have told many Mormons that I'm a born-again Christian. They tell me, "oh, I'm born-again, too." "When were you born-again?" I ask. Invariably I will get the following responses:

I was born-again when I was baptized.

Crusader,

Using Romans 10:9 as the "born-again" standard, then this answer is correct. In order for anyone to be baptized, they need to confess their sins and have a firm belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

I'm not sure, I've always been in the Church.
Or, dead silence.

If they give these answers, it sounds like they might need you to clarify what being born-again means. Help them out, friend.

So, from this fanatic to you, Gratitude, consider well the words of those who represent your belief-system, and how they compare with the inspired Word of God.

While the book certain contains numerous doctrinal points, Mormon Doctrine is not an official publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and should not be touted as such.

We believe in grace. We believe grace overcomes physical death and we believe grace overcomes sin so that we might return to live with God.

Grace is not a free gift. Christ taught that. He was explicit that there are certain things that we need to do to receive the gift of salvation. Paul taught that, too. But without grace, we could never overcome the effects of sin, which is why Joseph Fielding Smith, a prophet, stated:
Through his atonement we were bought from death and hell. Death and hell were paid-paid in full-and Christ was the only one who could pay that debt.
(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 125)

Christ and Christ alone paid that debt.

Sincerely,

Gratitude

[Krusader]

Historical Christianity did the same things - changing methods of "atonement" contrary to the Torah, etc. What's new?

Yosh, I appreciate how those of the Jewish faith would reject the Blood Atonement on the cross as a means of atonement, since Christ is rejected as your Messiah. But, could you elaborate on exactly what the Torah's requirements are for atonement - and how they are fulfilled in present-day Judaism. Thanks, C

[Krusader]

Welcome, Chick!

Define what you mean by "saved."

Crusader,

Using Romans 10:9 as the "born-again" standard, then this answer is correct. In order for anyone to be baptized, they need to confess their sins and have a firm belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.


If they give these answers, it sounds like they might need you to clarify what being born-again means. Help them out, friend.

While the book certain contains numerous doctrinal points, Mormon Doctrine is not an official publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and should not be touted as such.

We believe in grace. We believe grace overcomes physical death and we believe grace overcomes sin so that we might return to live with God.

Grace is not a free gift. Christ taught that. He was explicit that there are certain things that we need to do to receive the gift of salvation. Paul taught that, too. But without grace, we could never overcome the effects of sin, which is why Joseph Fielding Smith, a prophet, stated:
Through his atonement we were bought from death and hell. Death and hell were paid-paid in full-and Christ was the only one who could pay that debt.
(Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 125)

Christ and Christ alone paid that debt.

Sincerely,

Gratitude

Only by twisting the meaning of salvation can you say Mormons believe in grace. But, you have degrees of salvation: 1. Resurrection; 2. Assignment to the Terrestial or Telestial kingdoms (which is really a form of "damnation," just to make matters more complicated). The highest degree of salvation is getting to go to the Celestial Kingdom's highest compartment and evolving into a god. Let's look and see what our friend, McConkie, says about that:

"Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness and all true principles. Many conditioins must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood and the sealing power, there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelation, the ministering angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for JOSEPH SMITH and the restoration there would be NO slavation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (M.D., p. 670).

So, Chickonfire, who has committed her life to Christ and professed Him openly, is really damned. That's because she doesn't get "full salvation," only available through the Mormon Church, according to McConkie, and only available by believing in Joseph Smith.

The Bible, on the other hand, says that all who believe in Christ receive the same promise of salvation. We all go to be with Christ, those who came early and those who came late - the result is the same: Salvation. And, there is no other Name given among men by which we must be saved - and guess what guys, that name isn't Joseph Smith.

P.S. Seen any miracles lately at your local Mormon meetinghouse? If not, then according to McConkie, salvation is not possible.

[gratitude]

And, there is no other Name given among men by which we must be saved - and guess what guys, that name isn't Joseph Smith.

Agreed, friend!

Sincerely,

Gratitude

[Krusader]

Agreed, friend!

Sincerely,

Gratitude

Gratitude, if we both believed in the same Jesus, I'd say, Alleluia. Unfortunately, you believe in the Jesus of Mormonism, and I believe in the Jesus of the Bible. You believe in a Jesus who "attained" godhood, I believe in a Jesus Who was always and eternally God. You believe in a created Jesus, I believe in the eternal 2nd Person of the Godhead, eternally God, not some type of evolved humanoid.

Finally, you must rely on your own works for full salvation, because you are saved by grace only after ALL you can do.

[Conductor42]

Yosh, I appreciate how those of the Jewish faith would reject the Blood Atonement on the cross as a means of atonement, since Christ is rejected as your Messiah. But, could you elaborate on exactly what the Torah's requirements are for atonement - and how they are fulfilled in present-day Judaism. Thanks, C

Human Sacrifice is forbidden, period. Even if Judaism accepted Jesus as a Messiah, the Human Sacrifice would not have been accepted.

So how is a person forgiven of his sins? The same way the inhabitants of Nineveh did - by asking God for forgiveness. (See the story of Nineveh and Jonah, 1 Kings 8:46-52, Hosea 14:2-3, etc.)

When a temple is standing, Jews are required to bring Sacrifices in certain instances. The gist of the process is to realize that you did something you should have not done (though not intentionally), and to never to do it again. The remnants of the sacrifice are used to feed the Priests who work at the temple.

See also: http://www.messiahtruth.com/atone.html

[Krusader]

Human Sacrifice is forbidden, period. Even if Judaism accepted Jesus as a Messiah, the Human Sacrifice would not have been accepted.

So how is a person forgiven of his sins? The same way the inhabitants of Nineveh did - by asking God for forgiveness. (See the story of Nineveh and Jonah, 1 Kings 8:46-52, Hosea 14:2-3, etc.)

When a temple is standing, Jews are required to bring Sacrifices in certain instances. The gist of the process is to realize that you did something you should have not done (though not intentionally), and to never to do it again. The remnants of the sacrifice are used to feed the Priests who work at the temple.

See also: http://www.messiahtruth.com/atone.html

I checked out that link and it was very interesting. Of course, for Christians, we would also point to the first Passover when the Jews were commanded to slay a lamb and put blood above their doors - thereby sparing their first born children from the Angel of Death. The significance of the Passover Lamb was portrayed vividly when John the Baptist pointed to Christ and said, "behold the Lamb of God, Behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world."

I suppose if you look at Christ's death on the cross as a "human sacrifice," you could probably justify your view that it wasn't efficacious for the cleansing of sin. However, Christians believe that Christ was the God/Man - God, Himself, paying the penalty for the sins of the whole world. That's quite different from viewing it as a "human sacrifice."

Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission of sin - and the Mosaic law makes this very clear. It would appear that in modern-day Judaism there is no way to atone for sins according to Mosaic law, wouldn't you agree?