OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: UNSEEN WARFARE submitted by George Blaisdell

[Editor]

UNSEEN WARFARE

Submitted by George Blaisdell

Taken from the book:

Unseen Warfare by Lorenzo Scupoli [1530-1610]
as edited by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain [Greek: 1749-1809]
and revised by Theophan the Recluse [Russian: 1815-1894]
SVS PRESS
ISBN 0-913836-52-4
3rd Printing 2000

Introduction by Professor H. A. Hodges

I have been since completing the reading of that book, and I should tell you, I am planning to re-read it till I wear out the pages...

II. The spiritual teachings of the Fathers [p. 17]

Christian Ascetic theology is not something borrowed from extraneous sources, from eastern religions, or from Greek philosophy. It is firmly based in the Bible. The ruling idea of it is familiar to all of us from St. Paul, for it is he, again, who likens Christian life to a battle, and the Christian to a soldier; he describes the discipline to which the Christian is subject, his armor and his weapons of offence, and the enemies, internal and external, against whom he has to fight. Christian ascetic theology is simply the development of these Pauline conceptions into a systematic doctrine and a practical discipline, so that the Christian soldier or athlete may know exactly what he is contending for, and be well trained for the struggle.

The Bible is full of material for such a doctrine and discipline. If it contains the gospel of God's free grace, it also contains the new law, the law of liberty and love, by which God's people are to govern themselves. If it tells of the work that was wrought for us once for all by Christ on the Cross, it also tells of the work which is wrought in us every day by the Holy Ghost, and in that work it summons us to be 'fellow workers with God'. We are told to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, knowing that we can do nothing unless God works in us, and yet that in Christ we can do everything.

The Bible, both Old and New Testaments alike, is full of teaching which bears upon this theme. But, as is the manner of the Bible, it is presented piecemeal, and often in figurative and obscure language. Ascetic theology is the attempt to present it as an organized body of doctrine, with an agreed terminology and accepted principles, and to relate it to the experience gained through practical discipline. Such an organized body of doctrine has come down to us by continuous tradition and development from its first beginnings, which can be traced back to the third century.

The intellectual formulation begins with Clement of Alexandria. He, and after him Origen, taught Christians to think of the Christian way of life in terms which could be understood by educated Greeks. They began the construction of a theory of Christian living, by establishing certain fundamental conceptions and providing the beginnings of a terminology. The practical discipline, however, and the experiential content, came from the deserts of Egypt and Syria. There, hermits living in solitude, and monks living in communities of various kinds, set themselves to create a perfect pattern of Christian living. 'If you wish to be perfect,' said Christ to the rich young man, 'sell all that you have and give it to the poor, and come, and follow me.' The men of the Desert obeyed the command and claimed the implicit promise. They aspired to that perfection which Christ commands. [Matt v. 48, 'You therefore shall be perfect’.] They sought the kingdom of God, the pearl which the merchant in the story sold all his possessions to buy. They did not say that no one can be a true Christian in the world. They told stories of holy lives lived in the world, to shame the lazy monk. But for themselves they chose to withdraw from worldly temptations and distractions, in order to devote themselves wholly to the spiritual combat. It is therefore not surprising that, from daily experience, they came to know a great deal about it.

Their doctrine was codified in Greek by Evagrius of Pontus [d. 399], and a generation later in Latin by John Cassian, as well as by various other writers. It is the starting-point of all subsequent development in ascetic theology. A short summary of it will enable us to see how faithfully the "Unseen Warfare" follows the primitive models:

The goal of the Christian discipline is union with God by loving contemplation.

The goal of the Christian discipline is union with God by loving contemplation. This is the Kingdom of God, and this is eternal life. For this we were created, but from this we have fallen; our minds are distracted and fascinated by created things, our wills are held in bondage to finite and transient goods. The purpose of our discipline is therefore to turn the mind and will back into their proper alignment, so that they may receive in full measure the illumination of divine grace. They cannot do so while they are inordinately attached to the creatures; it is the pure in heart who shall see God, and therefore the immediate aim of our discipline must be to attain to purity of heart. This is what Abbot Moses explained to Cassian: 'The goal of our profession is the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of heaven; but our immediate aim or target is purity of heart, without which it is impossible for anyone to reach that goal.'

The way which leads to the goal can be considered under three aspects:

1. It is a moral way, a discipline of the will and character, and this has naturally two sides: a purgation of what is evil, and a cultivation of what is good.

[a] The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. At first, while the passions are strong and liable to carry us away, we are governed and kept in order mainly by the fear of God, together with shame and repentance for past sin. These motives lead gradually to the building up of self-control, and patience [long-suffering] under temptations and difficulties. This in turn kindles hope. Drawn on by hope and guided by a growing experience, we set to work not merely to control, but to 'eradicate' the passions. It is a lengthy process; but gradually the bodily appetites are weakened and the soul purged, until at last we arrive at purity of heart, of freedom from passion [[greek]apatheia[/greek]]. This does not mean that we cease to have any feelings; it means that we are no longer ruled by our feelings, but remain untroubled and tranquil in all circumstances. The heart or will, no longer swayed by emotions or carried away by its own self-will, is 'sober', 'awake', 'attentive', to God.

[b][b][/b] As we purge ourselves of passion, we also grow in virtue. The seeds of all the virtues are latent in us from the start; it is they which constitute the likeness of God in the soul, which sin has defaced but not destroyed. We must set to work methodically to cultivate them, until at last, by constant practice, they become easy and congenial to us. As passion weakens, virtue grows, and at length the heart which is pure from all passion is also adorned with all the virtues; or rather, at this stage, the separate virtues are united and summed up in the all-sufficient virtue of love. Love toward God, and love of our neighbor for the sake of God, becomes the ruling power in the heart.

From Scriptural study and from long experience the Desert Fathers built up an unsurpassed body of moral teaching. They classified and analyzed the various types of sin and of virtue; they found out effective ways of mortifying the one and strengthening the other; all subsequent Christian teaching on these matters is under their influence.

2. Parallel with the moral discipline, helping it on and helped on by it, runs the discipline of the mind, i.e. of the senses, the imagination, and the intellect. Here too there is a negative and a positive side.

[a] The senses, the memory, and the imagination must be guarded, not only against things which are a direct temptation to sin, but against everything which may engage the mind in passing interests when it should be bent upon the unseen realities. The intellect too must be called off from all vain curiosity, from all learning or enquiry pursued merely for its own sake.

[b][b][/b] Instead we must teach ourselves to see God in all things and all things in God. This is done by stages. First we learn how to contemplate material things and the face of nature; we come to see these things with the eyes of the Psalmist, to whom they all declare the glory of God. Then we can rise to contemplate the glory of God in immaterial things, especially the human soul, which bears His image and likeness. Next we go on to contemplate God's actions in history, His judgments and His saving acts and the whole 'economy' or 'dispensation' of our redemption. The mind becomes so penetrated with the meaning of these things, so that whatever we see or hear speaks to us of them. In time a great simplification takes place. Instead of contemplating all these things separately and in detail, we come to see them all as summed up in Christ, from Whom are all things, and in Whom is fulfilled the whole counsel of God toward us. When the heart becomes pure and love reigns in it, then also the contemplation of Christ becomes habitual in the mind. The soul has become Christ-centered.

There is a stage beyond this. However the imagination and the intellect may be disciplined, we cannot truly apprehend God while we cling to visible things, and let our minds dwell upon images of such things. Even Christ Himself, Who is the heart and center of the visible universe, is not truly known if we stop short at His human nature, not recognizing in Him the Eternal Word, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. A time must come when the mind turns from all objects of sense and clears itself of imagery. The eye of the body and the imagination being then shut, the inward eye of the spirit is opened; the soul, recollected and concentrated within herself, can see herself for what she is, and rise above herself to the vision of God, Whose image and likeness she bears. There is a supreme mode of contemplation, indeed, in which the soul, seized and uplifted by God, forgets all created things, including herself, being involved, so far as they are concerned, in an 'infinite ignorance'; but this ignorance of creatures is at the same time a luminous knowledge of God, a formless contemplation of Him Who is without form or mode. The soul which has enjoyed this high contemplation has reached the summit of 'knowledge' [[greek]gnwsis[/greek]] and 'wisdom' [[greek]sofia[/greek]]. She has attained to the Kingdom of God. Even when not engaged in actual contemplation, such a soul is permanently 'settled' on God, and lives in the light of a perpetual awareness of Him, accompanied by an abiding joy.

3. Officially, the Fathers recognize only two ways, the moral and the contemplative; but in fact they also show us a third way running parallel with these two. It is the way of prayer.

In I Tim. ii 1 we are bidden to practice petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings'; [[greek]dehseis, proserxas, enteukseis, euxaristias[/greek]]; the Fathers take this as a progressive series marking out the road of prayer. 'Petitions' are confessions of sin and prayers for pardon and restoration, and the prayer of beginners is dominated by these. In them the fear of God finds voice. 'Prayers' are taken to mean requests for the virtues and graces, and acts of self-dedication and renunciation of the world. These are expressions of hope; they are characteristic of the soul which is beginning to be led forward in the paths of righteousness. As time goes on, this soul will begin to spare more time, in charity, to intercede for others. By the time that purity of heart is attained, even intercession will have been transcended, and the prayer of the pure soul will be predominantly thanksgiving and adoration. Of course it is not meant that the soul, in passing from one form of prayer to another, leaves the old one behind and ceases to practice it. No one can outgrow penitence; and the earliest and lowliest of all prayers, the prayer of the publican, will accompany the soul to the very end of her journey. Nor can she ever cease to make requests for herself and for others. It is a question of where the emphasis lies; and the pure heart, which lives in the contemplation of Christ, cannot live predominantly in fear and shame. It is ruled by thankfulness and love.

Prayer and contemplation are closely joined together; and as in contemplation, so in prayer, a time comes when we must rise above the colorful imagination and the busy intellect, and approach God in 'pure prayer'. By this is meant a kind of prayer in which the mind does not run from image to image, or from one consideration to another, nor to work out its prayer in a coherent texture of words, but stands still in unmoving attachment to God. The various elements of prayer, penitence, supplication, intercession, thanksgiving, adoration etc., are not separately expressed in successive sentences; they are all present at once in the unity of this prayer. The soul may use a few pregnant words which say much in little, i.e. in modern western terminology an 'aspiration' or the prayer may be wordless altogether, i.e. what in modern western terminology is called the 'prayer of simplicity', or 'prayer of faith'. The Fathers class all such types of prayer together under the name of 'pure prayer' [[greek]kathata proseuxh[/greek]] or ‘quietness’ [[greek]hsuxia[/greek]]. In the pure heart, such prayer becomes habitual, and so fulfills the apostolic command to 'pray without ceasing' [I Thess. v. 17] Such a soul may also be visited by moments of 'burning prayer', or 'infused' prayer as modern writers would say; these are a gift which God gives when it pleases Him. But the abiding state of the pure soul is one in which pure love, habitual contemplation, and perpetual prayer are all united; for though the three ways are distinct all along their courses, they become one and the same when they reach their common goal. Pure contemplation is inseparable from perfect love, and this pours itself out in pure prayer.

The foregoing is a summary of the spiritual teachings of the Desert. It is not a full account of the ascetic theology of the Eastern Church. I have said nothing about that body of teaching which stresses above all the transcendent mystery of God, and which speaks of the contemplation of God not as light, but as darkness. That teaching is known to the whole Christian world, East and West, through the writings which bear the name of Dionysius the Areopagite. Its influence in some quarters has been very great indeed, but on the other hand it has never been universal. Christian ascetic theology was already an organized body of thought, accompanied by the appropriate practical discipline, before the "Dionysian teaching was accepted into it, and it was not accepted everywhere. The "Unseen Warfare" shows little trace of specifically Dionysian phrases or conceptions. It stands firmly on the basis of that earlier tradition, fundamental alike to East and West, whose main points are summarized above.

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[Rdr. Arsenios]

I have been wondering about the lack of response to this article -

Perhaps it was the switching of the title. The original title was "The Ascetic Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church." And indeed, as a category of Theology, it seemed to fit right in with this forum [TheologyWeb]... Yet it is not, by western lights, an article about theology at all, but instead would probably be seen as an article on the process of sanctification. In the Orthodox Tradition, few are called theologians, though many are, and the reason is that so few write about the theology they live and breathe, for they know that God is experienced inwardly in the purified heart, and that those who encounter Him there, and abide there with Him, are true theologians, for they KNOW God... Yet these are reluctant to break out of their silence where such communion is found, and talk much about it. Even Paul had reluctance, saying only that things in the third heaven comprise some of which it is unlawful to speak!

Now the original author of this article is a Roman Catholic! [Lorenzo, by name!!]

And he wrote it at the time of the Reformation.

And it was picked up by Nicodemus on the Holy Mountain of Greece, translated from Latin into Greek, added to, and edited.

And was later picked up, retranslated into Russian, re-added to and re-edited by St. Theophan of Russia.

So that by the end of the second editing, it is pretty much an Orthodox work through and through. The greatest area of additions and modifications came with the area of prayer, where they took small hints from the original author, and developed them into additional chapters. Most of the ascetic instructions were left pretty much intact.

I would be interested in the Roman Catholic response to this work, and if there is much of a current following of the teachings of the original author.

And I really wanted my brother Jude to read this article, and post his response...

The Ascetic Theology of the Desert Fathers is herein presented in a nutshell, by way of introduction to a work dedicated to their actual theology... "This is Christianity in the Transforming Heart - And has little to do with the dry, speculative, and conceptual permutations of logical enquiry...

For in the Orthodox Faith, to be a theologian is to 'see'/(know) [greek]eidomai[/greek] God...

This whole approach is seemingly foreign to the Reformation, and to modern day Protestants, yes?

Arsenios

[Faramir]

I have been wondering about the lack of response to this article -

Perhaps it was the switching of the title. The original title was "The Ascetic Theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church." And indeed, as a category of Theology, it seemed to fit right in with this forum [TheologyWeb]... Yet it is not, by western lights, an article about theology at all, but instead would probably be seen as an article on the process of sanctification. In the Orthodox Tradition, few are called theologians, though many are, and the reason is that so few write about the theology they live and breathe, for they know that God is experienced inwardly in the purified heart, and that those who encounter Him there, and abide there with Him, are true theologians, for they KNOW God... Yet these are reluctant to break out of their silence where such communion is found, and talk much about it. Even Paul had reluctance, saying only that things in the third heaven comprise some of which it is unlawful to speak!

Now the original author of this article is a Roman Catholic! [Lorenzo, by name!!]

And he wrote it at the time of the Reformation.

And it was picked up by Nicodemus on the Holy Mountain of Greece, translated from Latin into Greek, added to, and edited.

And was later picked up, retranslated into Russian, re-added to and re-edited by St. Theophan of Russia.

So that by the end of the second editing, it is pretty much an Orthodox work through and through. The greatest area of additions and modifications came with the area of prayer, where they took small hints from the original author, and developed them into additional chapters. Most of the ascetic instructions were left pretty much intact.

I would be interested in the Roman Catholic response to this work, and if there is much of a current following of the teachings of the original author.

And I really wanted my brother Jude to read this article, and post his response...

The Ascetic Theology of the Desert Fathers is herein presented in a nutshell, by way of introduction to a work dedicated to their actual theology... "This is Christianity in the Transforming Heart - And has little to do with the dry, speculative, and conceptual permutations of logical enquiry...

For in the Orthodox Faith, to be a theologian is to 'see'/(know) [greek]eidomai[/greek] God...

This whole approach is seemingly foreign to the Reformation, and to modern day Protestants, yes?

Arsenios

Interesting article George. I only had time to skim it but look forward to reading it in detail when I have a little more spare time (which may be several weeks from now )

I don't think I have ever seen ascetics presented in such a way before.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Interesting article George. I only had time to skim it but look forward to reading it in detail when I have a little more spare time (which may be several weeks from now )

I don't think I have ever seen ascetics presented in such a way before.

Well, that was the reason I presented the article. The ascetic theology of the Church is virtually unknown to the west. Nobody does it, and everyone is mostly concerned about getting their theological WORDS all properly aligned as an intellective enterprise. That is why I call the west "neo-scholastic", in that they try to infer theological knowledge from scripture, rather than know it directly through ascetic struggle. The usual response is that askesis is but a misguided attempt to "earn" one's way to heaven, on some kind of an equally misguided "merit system" of salvation, which it most assurredly is NOT... And the fact that we are called to WORK out our salvation, in fear and trembling, persisting through to the end, and that the ascetic struggle is utterly and thoroughly Pauline, and Biblical, is entirely missed by the entire Protestant Reformation.

So I presented a really very good summary of it here, which I did not write, in the hopes that it might find fertile ground among those who are sick of the endless and customarily fruitless arguments about what is and what is not theologically sound exegesis from words, and instead present the "real" exegesis, which is ontological, and ascetic, and Biblical.

So I will look forward to your response, Faramir... May your time be blessed to read it...

Arsenios

[Stevewalker]

Hi George,
I've read your post which has coincided with a book I am reading at the moment by Henry Chadwick on "The Early Church". Thanks to Henry Chadwick's book I am able to appreciate some of the names which you mention in your post, I was suprised by this book and continue to be suprised by the immensly valuable doctrine which has become surpassed in modern mainstream evangelical churches.

Thankyou very much for the brief outline of the Ascetic Theology, I found it very helpful. I sometimes have feelings that the Eastern Orthdox Church is similar to the United Nations, I am amazed by its canons and its history and ideals but sometimes less the overwhelmed by the way things get lost and mismanaged by it. However my post was not meant to be critical of the Eastern Orthodox but rather encouraging and thankful for the wealth of theological discovery which has been done by it.

Also one specific point, what are your thoughts about its feelings to imagery in prayer, I know some of the Donatists felt that imagery in prayer should be eliminated but I'm not sure didn't Christ take on human form so we could understand him through that, perhaps it would be explained as only as a means to gain full transcendental understanding of God. However I am unsure whether I can take this on completely, I'll need to think about it.

God Bless,
Steve.

[themuzicman]

I think the issues that I have with ascetecism revolve around the lack of its practice by the apostles. If this were the mode of the Christian life, then we should see both Christ and His apostles living it.

However, Paul clearly states that he lived with plenty as well as living with nothing, they apostles never formed a monestary, never advocated that Christians give up all they had or live a life in denial of themselves. Likewise, Christ appeared to have at least a servicable treasury, with enough money for the treasurer to be stealing from it.

Indeed, the passions that we have are given to us by God, and are simply perverted by sin. The desire for sex, food, creativeness, love, acceptance, comfort are all good things when acted upon in good ways, and bad, when acted upon poorly.

To deny ourselves passion is to deny our created nature, which I think is one of the poor assumptions of ascetecism.

Another issue is that ascetecism simply isn't called for in scripture. Christ commanded his diciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel and baptizing. There simply isn't an implication of a monastic lifestyle or a pursuit of the contemplative self in that command! Yes, Jesus told the RICH young ruler to sell all he had, but that was because he was rich, and Jesus knew he was unwilling to do so, and said as much to illustrate a point to his disciples. IF we read the entire passage, we find that having things or not having things isn't really an issue there.

The final point is practical in nature. Ascetecism ultimately leads to false-peity and false-humility, which leads to pride. No, it may not happen for everyone, but in places where communities have embraced ascetecism, a sense of superiority ultimately arises because they think their denial of self results in being holier than thou.

Michael

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hi George,
I've read your post which has coincided with a book I am reading at the moment by Henry Chadwick on "The Early Church". Thanks to Henry Chadwick's book I am able to appreciate some of the names which you mention in your post, I was suprised by this book and continue to be suprised by the immensly valuable doctrine which has become surpassed in modern mainstream evangelical churches.

It is simply unknown in the west... It is the ontology of salvation, that begins with purification of the heart... In the west, we are all grasping about for the proper verbal understanding of theological constructs in ourt minds, and the whole issue of the denial of self, and the taking up of one's own cross, and the following of Christ, is trivialized to mere personal sanctification.

In the historic and apostolic Church, these are the core issues of salvation, because the Church pretty much has worked out the verbal formulaics of theological understanding, which is where dogmatics comes in, and instead is focused, as Christ was focused, and the Apostles, on the actual process of attaining unto maturity in the faith...

Thank you very much for the brief outline of the Ascetic Theology, I found it very helpful. I sometimes have feelings that the Eastern Orthdox Church is similar to the United Nations, I am amazed by its canons and its history and ideals but sometimes less the overwhelmed by the way things get lost and mismanaged by it. However my post was not meant to be critical of the Eastern Orthodox but rather encouraging and thankful for the wealth of theological discovery which has been done by it.

While there has been tons of writings, they all boil down to merely passing on, from generation to generation, the faith, received once, and for all, by the Apostles...

Also one specific point, what are your thoughts about its feelings to imagery in prayer, I know some of the Donatists felt that imagery in prayer should be eliminated but I'm not sure didn't Christ take on human form so we could understand him through that, perhaps it would be explained as only as a means to gain full transcendental understanding of God. However I am unsure whether I can take this on completely, I'll need to think about it.

God Bless,
Steve.

We stay with the images [eikonas, icons] of the Church, and these are milk... The solid food comes from beyond images, and in that form of prayer, the interior prayer of the heart, which is taught in the Church, one enters the stillness [hesychia] in which one resides within the kingdom of heaven...

But what is generally avoided is the active use of the imagination as a vehicle of prayer. You will not find Orthodox, for instance, imagining themselves to BE Christ struggling His way from his arrest to His being nailed on the Cross... That is a western and Roman practice, but not Orthodox [at least I have not heard of it among the Orthodox]... We tend to see such an activity as "creative visualization" that is under the control of the rulership of images in the imagination. And without the discernment of the mature, such an effort is easy prey for demons... A virtual 'sandbox' for them...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

[quote+muz]Another issue is that ascetecism simply isn't called for in scripture. Christ commanded his diciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel and baptizing. There simply isn't an implication of a monastic lifestyle or a pursuit of the contemplative self in that command! Yes, Jesus told the RICH young ruler to sell all he had, but that was because he was rich, and Jesus knew he was unwilling to do so, and said as much to illustrate a point to his disciples.
[/quote]

I believe that the rich young man in that gospel is the same one who ended up WRITING it... He did indeed sell all that he had, after much struggle, and gave it to the poor, and took up his cross, and followed Christ, unto maturity in the faith...

Arsenios

ps - Every Pauline epistle references ascetic struggles...

A.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I think the issues that I have with ascetecism revolve around the lack of its practice by the apostles. If this were the mode of the Christian life, then we should see both Christ and His apostles living it.

It is an amazement to me that the askesis of the Bible is so invisible to so many who study it so hard - Because it flows through and is the foundation in discipleship of all that is written therein.

Look here, for instance, as Paul begins writing in 2 Cor. 1:

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.
8We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our[a] behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.

Notice how he cites comforts and sufferings, and remember Christ's words: "In the world, you WILL find tribulation, and in Me, peace that passes all understanding." Now you can argue that he is speaking of specific issues in Asia, and not to discipleship, yet further down he writes:

16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

However, Paul clearly states that he lived with plenty as well as living with nothing, they apostles never formed a monestary, never advocated that Christians give up all they had or live a life in denial of themselves. Likewise, Christ appeared to have at least a servicable treasury, with enough money for the treasurer to be stealing from it.

Well, from acts we have: "32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."

Now you are right, for the mature in the faith, like Paul, having and not having, suffering and rejoicing, are all one and the same... But that exaltation comes after struggle unto maturity... Which is why Paul writes [above]: "Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day."

Why are they outwardly wasting away?? Do you think they are just suffering a few temporary set-backs? No... That is the askesis of their Godly lives... That is the mortification of the flesh...

Indeed, the passions that we have are given to us by God, and are simply perverted by sin. The desire for sex, food, creativeness, love, acceptance, comfort are all good things when acted upon in good ways, and bad, when acted upon poorly.

True enough, in normal living, but in discipleship in Christ, we are called to deny our self, to hate our own life, to take up our cross - A painful matter - And then to FOLLOW CHRIST... We are not called, in Christ, to be sexy gourmands enjoying all manner of creature comforts in love and acceptance by all... That is not what being a Christian is about at all... It is about struggle with sin... And self denial...

To deny ourselves passion is to deny our created nature, which I think is one of the poor assumptions of ascetecism.

Asceticism is not an assumption, it is discipleship in the Church Christ came to earth and created... It is revelation... And it is Biblical, once you start looking for it... It is everywhere! [well, almost...!] And yes, if Christ tells you that to follow Him you must deny your-SELF, that IS your created and FALLEN and FLESHY nature that He is commanding you to DENY...

Another issue is that ascetecism simply isn't called for in scripture. Christ commanded his diciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel and baptizing.

The call was to DISCIPLE the nations, teaching them all that Christ commanded, to be DOING... Baptizing them in the Name of the FAther, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit... The great call to the Apostles was to disciple, not just to preach, and following discipleship, baptism... And discipleship is ascetic - fastings, prayings, tremblings, self denial, living spiritual lives, turned from material concerns of the flesh...

There simply isn't an implication of a monastic lifestyle or a pursuit of the contemplative self in that command!

The early Christians were naturally monastic, in that they were persecuted horrifically, and lived in seclusion from the world that persecuted them. It was AFTER the end of the persecutions that so many fled to the deserts to attain perfection in themselves, as the Bible commands us to do...

The final point is practical in nature. Ascetecism ultimately leads to false-peity and false-humility, which leads to pride. No, it may not happen for everyone, but in places where communities have embraced ascetecism, a sense of superiority ultimately arises because they think their denial of self results in being holier than thou.

Pride and vainglory are a constant obstacle, even in just claiming to be a Christian... And that is why having a spiritual father is so important - Someone who can tell you what you need to do to get past such obstacles, someone who has walked the talk before you, and can instruct as he learned... That is why Paul writes that you have many teachers in Christ, but few Fathers, and he is one of these, mature in the faith, and guarding [spiritually and as a counseller]over his spiritual children...

I really think, Michael, that IF you put on the 'askesis glasses' and take another look at scripture, you will find it throughout... Yet without the glasses, it seems pretty invisible... It is the praxis of the discipline of the discipleship of the Church that forms the very backdrop of the Pauline epistles... Fasting, prayers, services and vigils are the nuts and bolts of the discipleship that has been handed down from the beginnings...

Remember Christ talking about St. John, the Forerunner? "What did you expect to see? A reed bending in the wind?" Do you have ANY idea of the insufferable discomfort, indeed agony, caused by a camel hair shirt?

Arsenios - The milk-drinker!

[themuzicman]

I believe that the rich young man in that gospel is the same one who ended up WRITING it... He did indeed sell all that he had, after much struggle, and gave it to the poor, and took up his cross, and followed Christ, unto maturity in the faith...

Arsenios

ps - Every Pauline epistle references ascetic struggles...

A.

Well, the tenor of the narrative is that the man went away sad becuse it was the one thing not willing to do. There simply isn't any basis for saying that he eventually did so.

Oh, and Paul speaks of troubles that result from his adventures as an evangelist, but his lifestyle wasn't one of intentionally embracing asceticism.

Michael

[themuzicman]

It is an amazement to me that the askesis of the Bible is so invisible to so many who study it so hard - Because it flows through and is the foundation in discipleship of all that is written therein.

I think the difference we find is between seeking asceticism and encountering persecution as a result of our work in Christ. You don't find Paul bringing ascetic circumstances upon himself, but, rather, that Paul does his work, and sometimes hardship befall him.

Look here, for instance, as Paul begins writing in 2 Cor. 1:



Notice how he cites comforts and sufferings, and remember Christ's words: "In the world, you WILL find tribulation, and in Me, peace that passes all understanding."

Again, Christ isn't calling for us to bring asceticism upon ourselves. Not that persecution should be avoided at all costs, but the difference between asceticism and persecution for walking in Christ are two very different things.

[quote]Now you can argue that he is speaking of specific issues in Asia, and not to discipleship, yet further down he writes:

16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Well, from acts we have: "32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."

Well, this describes communal living, not asceticism.

Now you are right, for the mature in the faith, like Paul, having and not having, suffering and rejoicing, are all one and the same... But that exaltation comes after struggle unto maturity... Which is why Paul writes [above]: "Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day."

Because the body ages and persecution continues. Again, this wasting away isn't brought about by Paul upon himself, but through the circumstances that arise through his work in following Christ.

Why are they outwardly wasting away?? Do you think they are just suffering a few temporary set-backs? No... That is the askesis of their Godly lives... That is the mortification of the flesh...

That is very much taken out of context. Paul just got done saying that they were being persecuted. That seems the obvious source of their wasting away, and not ascetic lifestyles.

True enough, in normal living, but in discipleship in Christ, we are called to deny our self, to hate our own life, to take up our cross - A painful matter - And then to FOLLOW CHRIST... We are not called, in Christ, to be sexy gourmands enjoying all manner of creature comforts in love and acceptance by all... That is not what being a Christian is about at all... It is about struggle with sin... And self denial...

I think you've taken that further than it was intended to, as well. Christ never says to "hate out own life" in the ascetic manner. I will agree that we should not live in every way as the world does, indulging every kind of sin, wasting away the years in pursuit of meaningless goals that mean nothing in the end. Taking up our cross certainly implies that we will embrace a life serving and following Christ.

However, that does not imply a call to a complete denial of the enjoyment of the creation that God designed for us. Christ himself went to parties with sinners, attended weddings and presumably enjoyed himself, so much so that he was identified with them by the religous leaders of the day.

What asceticism lack is balance. No, we're not to indulge evil for our own pleasure. However, even Paul lived in plenty at times, among kings and rulers as part of his ministry. Yes, you're good at pointing out the hardship that Paul endured, but you've yet to show that we're to seek out and create out own hardship as asceticism demands.

Asceticism is not an assumption, it is discipleship in the Church Christ came to earth and created... It is revelation... And it is Biblical, once you start looking for it... It is everywhere! [well, almost...!] And yes, if Christ tells you that to follow Him you must deny your-SELF, that IS your created and FALLEN and FLESHY nature that He is commanding you to DENY...

Which is indulgence in SIN, not a denial of anything that might be enjoyed as intended by the Creator. Again, you fail to bring balance to the Christian life.

The call was to DISCIPLE the nations, teaching them all that Christ commanded, to be DOING... Baptizing them in the Name of the FAther, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit... The great call to the Apostles was to disciple, not just to preach, and following discipleship, baptism... And discipleship is ascetic - fastings, prayings, tremblings, self denial, living spiritual lives, turned from material concerns of the flesh...

Where is discipleship ascetic? The only disciples that were ascetic were the disciple of the pharisees. Even Christ's disciples had wives, children, careers, and posessions.

The early Christians were naturally monastic, in that they were persecuted horrifically, and lived in seclusion from the world that persecuted them. It was AFTER the end of the persecutions that so many fled to the deserts to attain perfection in themselves, as the Bible commands us to do...

Oh, cite? (FYI, the Church in Jerusalem was scattered because the Romans came and destroyed the city, and that didn't end the persecutions.)

Pride and vainglory are a constant obstacle, even in just claiming to be a Christian... And that is why having a spiritual father is so important - Someone who can tell you what you need to do to get past such obstacles, someone who has walked the talk before you, and can instruct as he learned... That is why Paul writes that you have many teachers in Christ, but few Fathers, and he is one of these, mature in the faith, and guarding [spiritually and as a counseller]over his spiritual children...

I really think, Michael, that IF you put on the 'askesis glasses' and take another look at scripture, you will find it throughout... Yet without the glasses, it seems pretty invisible... It is the praxis of the discipline of the discipleship of the Church that forms the very backdrop of the Pauline epistles... Fasting, prayers, services and vigils are the nuts and bolts of the discipleship that has been handed down from the beginnings...

I prefer to approach scripture without presuppositions and assumptions about what it might say.

Remember Christ talking about St. John, the Forerunner? "What did you expect to see? A reed bending in the wind?" Do you have ANY idea of the insufferable discomfort, indeed agony, caused by a camel hair shirt?

Arsenios - The milk-drinker!

He had a special calling, and certainly isn't the example that we are called to follow.

Honestly, I think you're confusing the persecution that naturally follows the preaching of the gospel in a culture that is predominantly non-Christian, and an ascetic lifestyle which attempts to bring these conditions upon oneself.

Now, that's not to say that a life of self-disciple in those areas where our lives could use improvement is a bad thing. However, to say that the scriptures preach that all Christians should embrace a life of monatic asceticism is simply not founded in God's Word.

Michael

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Honestly, I think you're confusing the persecution that naturally follows the preaching of the gospel in a culture that is predominantly non-Christian, and an ascetic lifestyle which attempts to bring these conditions upon oneself.

Now, that's not to say that a life of self-disciple in those areas where our lives could use improvement is a bad thing. However, to say that the scriptures preach that all Christians should embrace a life of monatic asceticism is simply not founded in God's Word.

Michael

We are looking at discipleship within the Church, which involves the obedience of the prescriptions of the Church in prayer, services, and fasting, and in the onus upon each of the faithful to struggle against sins.

As well, we are looking at the difference between milk-drinkers, like me, and solid food eaters, like Paul, and John the Forerunner, and the saints - We are looking at the difference between those mature in the faith, and those not yet mature...

2Cor4 "11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you."

Now notice the relationship between the living - eg the mature in Christ, eg the Pauls and those who are mature in the faith - and what it is that they undergo [eg suffer] in order that the immature should have life at work within themselves: They "are always being given over to death for Jesus sake..." etc, so that in them, death is at work, but in the immature, life is at work...

And in more mundane terms, the strong faith carries the weak, the mature the immature, the veterans the rookies... And he says as much just a little later: "15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God."

And yet he does not complain about his sufferings for the flock [eg the immature], but instead regards them as a joyous burden: "16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

And notice how he tells them that the troubles are achieving something - He does NOT say, you should observe, that the persecutions are merely troublesome, and but an unsuccessful attempt of the devil to sidetrack his ministry... Not at all does he say this... He instead says that their outward wasting away in inward daily renewal IS ACHIEVING an eternal glory for those who are suffering... And their eyes are fixed upon the unseen...

Now further on, he relates in mock foolishness his exploits and sufferings in the accidental events of his apostolic life, but then adds, almost as an aside in chapter 11: "28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?" This is what spiritual fatherhood entails - When one of your spiritual children sins, YOU FEEL IT... When he or she is weak, you FEEL weak... And thereby a spiritual father takes on the sins and the weaknesses of his children, when they stumble... In a way, he is their spiritual 'training wheels'...

He goes on in 12: 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. This is the essence of ascetic theology: "Delighting in hardships..." And not just arbitrary ones, but the ones needed - The thorn in his flesh was there for a reason, that he not fall to vainglory, and he boasted in his weaknesses and infirmities... Stating in 13: "Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you."

Are you starting to see this? What kind of testing is he talking about when he writes: "5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves." You don't think he is talking about multiple choice, do you?? Or an essay?? He is talking about testing oneself in the arena of sin, and purity of heart, is he not? And HOW do you test THAT??? Yet he does not explain -For they know what he means...

Then in 1Cor4: "9For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world."

This is the epitomy of an ascetic life - "Blessed are ye when men shall curse you and say all manner of things against you falsely for My sake, for your reward shall be grezt in heaven." [by memory] So that the ascetic loves the hardships that living for Christ entails, and seeks them out, as best he can, and welcomes all manner of opposition, knowing that in his hands he has the weapons of victory, and the armor of God...

And again in 7: "29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away. "

Do you not see here the virtually wholesale turning away from the world, "for it is passing away"? And this turning away is askesis...

And then, in 1Cor9, the quintessential ascetic passage from Paul:
"25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

"Everyone goes into strict training...to get a crown that will last forever...I beat my body and make it my slave...so that...I myself will not be disqualified..."

I mean, how much more do you NEED?? And once you put on the glasses that allow you to see it, you will find it throughout...

And you are right, we are not ALL called to the great ascetic feats of the Apostolic Fathers - But those who ARE, indeed become them... And they father children in the faith. As Paul writes, you have many teachers, but few Fathers... Anybody can TALK about the faith, but how many will feel weariness when you are tired, and take up the burn of your sin when you are falling into it?

What do you think, Michael? Is this starting to light up for you?

Arsenios

[themuzicman]

What do you think, Michael? Is this starting to light up for you?


Arsenios

I see what you're saying, but I don't think scripture makes your point entirely.

Again, the theme of my last post was balance, and I'll emphasize it more, here.

Maybe part of the problem is the definition of asceticism

asceticism.:
1. The principles and practices of an ascetic; extreme self-denial and austerity.
2. The doctrine that the ascetic life releases the soul from bondage to the body and permits union with the divine.

Notice that this is a lifestyle that is brought upon oneself.

With respect to the lifestyle of Paul and the other apostles, we find that they did not seek to place themselves in a place of suffering, but that suffering followed them because of their ministry. They took joy in their sufferings, because suffering seemed to be the seed of the church in their day, and, indeed, it remains so today. But in no way do we find apostles bringing suffering upon themselves!

Yes, Paul calls for us to enter into training, as one would do to run a race, but this is far from asceticism, where one enters into extreme training, but never seems to appear to compete, because the goal is the ascetic lifestyle, not running the race.

And this is one place where the balance is necessary, because if all we do is hit the gym and eat salad without dressing with supplements, and never go use our strength to compete or otherwise engage those around us, our work is in vain.

So, question 1 is:What is the purpose of your self-discipline? To achieve asceticism? Or to accomplish a meaningful purpose?

Second, While Paul endured many hardships, he also reports having lived in plenty. Was Paul not living the lifestyle that he should have, when he was living with kings and rulers, with plenty to eat, and no suffering? Likewise, Christ attended weddings, parties, and other social gatherings, and had a ministry that was prosperous enough to have a treasurer that was stealing from the funds. Clearly He did not live a life of poverty.

And, if we go to John 10:10, we find that Christ came that we might have ABUDNDANT life. Now, we have to (again) balance our lives of training and suffering with living live as God intended for us to live it, enjoying His creation, and living the full, abundant life that Christ came to give us.

So, while I laud your attempt to get us to look at our lives and see whether we are disciplining ourselves, entering into spiritual training to prepare ourselves, I think calling us to an ascetic lifestyle misses the point of going into training, making training the goal, rather than the means.

Michael

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I see what you're saying,

Glory to God!

but I don't think scripture makes your point entirely.

Well, the only point I was hoping to affirm is that askesis is scriptural, and that it is pretty much either ignored or not perceived at all in the Protestant west...

Again, the theme of my last post was balance, and I'll emphasize it more, here.

Listen carefully to our Lord's words:

IF anyone is willing...
after Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Take up his [own] cross...
And follow Me...

The first commandment to those who are willing to follow Christ is self-denial. And the second is the taking up of one's own cross.

And the Apostolic commission is to DISCIPLE the nations, teaching them all that Christ has commanded, TO BE DOING...

The goal is union with Christ - Ontological union... It only comes with a purified heart. Paul writes: "We hold the mystery of the Faith in a purified conscience... We have the mind [ [greek]nous[/greek] ] of Christ."

Now discipleship is the process of the purification of the heart, in the struggle against sin, and the responsibility for this is not given to the world generally, or to those who have Bibles, but to the Apostles - It is these, within the Body of Christ, that have the responsibility to disciple the nations. And the cross is an instrument of torture unto death, and we each have our own to bear...

Maybe part of the problem is the definition of asceticism

asceticism.:
1. The principles and practices of an ascetic; extreme self-denial and austerity.
2. The doctrine that the ascetic life releases the soul from bondage to the body and permits union with the divine.

Notice that this is a lifestyle that is brought upon oneself.

Well, it is a powerful spiritual tool, in the hands of anyone - Ghandi was an ascetic who would starve himself to attain his political goals - So that it is not just asceticism that is in view here, but the specific ascetic praxis of the Christian Fathers, beginning with Christ and the Apostles... The "lifestyle issue" is but one of obedience to Christ through being obedient to the elders and the apostles, as the Bible commands us to do - And beyond that, one needs the blessing of one's spiritual father, or elder, or Presbyteros...

With respect to the lifestyle of Paul and the other apostles, we find that they did not seek to place themselves in a place of suffering, but that suffering followed them because of their ministry.

1Cor9,
"25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

These are Paul's words, not mine. He writes in essence: "WE GO into strict training to get a crown that will last forever. I do not run aimlessly, nor fight like a man beating the air. No, I BEAT MY BODY AND MAKE IT MY SLAVE so that AFTER I HAVE PREACHED [THIS] TO OTHERS, I myself will not be disqualified."

With this clearly in view, why do you cling to this idea that:

But in no way do we find apostles bringing suffering upon themselves!

The suffering that was incidental to their ministry is NOT what Paul's words mean [above]... It is this self-denial and the bearing of one's own cross that makes the bearing of these incidental sufferings but a joke, not worthy of mention, except that Paul act the fool and the madman...

Yes, Paul calls for us to enter into training, as one would do to run a race, but this is far from asceticism, where one enters into extreme training, but never seems to appear to compete, because the goal is the ascetic lifestyle, not running the race.

The askesis IS the running of the race of self denial in obedience to Christ, and struggle against sin. Our Lord Himself said: "Not YET have you resisted sin unto blood..." Remember that? That is askesis...

And this is one place where the balance is necessary, because if all we do is hit the gym and eat salad without dressing with supplements, and never go use our strength to compete or otherwise engage those around us, our work is in vain.

Well, if your point is that ascesis is not an end in itself, but the means to loftier goals, and subordinate to them, then we are utterly agreed. The training is for war, and most certainly NOT for gym workouts, and seeing who can lift the most!

So, question 1 is:What is the purpose of your self-discipline? To achieve asceticism? Or to accomplish a meaningful purpose?

It is to obey Christ, and follow the teaching of the apostles and the apostolic Church, that we attain purity of heart, and union with God [eg theosis, or divinization - the participating in the uncreated energies of God.] Or, more simply, to live a holy and God centered life...

Second, While Paul endured many hardships, he also reports having lived in plenty. Was Paul not living the lifestyle that he should have, when he was living with kings and rulers, with plenty to eat, and no suffering? Likewise, Christ attended weddings, parties, and other social gatherings, and had a ministry that was prosperous enough to have a treasurer that was stealing from the funds. Clearly He did not live a life of poverty.

He was as indifferent to riches as he was to poverty, to pleasure as to pain... And he was so because he lived an ascetic [eg spiritual, turned away from the body] life. [I BEAT MY BODY AND MAKE IT MY SLAVE...]

And, if we go to John 10:10, we find that Christ came that we might have ABUDNDANT life. Now, we have to (again) balance our lives of training and suffering with living live as God intended for us to live it, enjoying His creation, and living the full, abundant life that Christ came to give us.

Abundance of life is spiritual, not fleshy...

So, while I laud your attempt to get us to look at our lives and see whether we are disciplining ourselves, entering into spiritual training to prepare ourselves, I think calling us to an ascetic lifestyle misses the point of going into training, making training the goal, rather than the means.

Well, I am certainly NOT calling us all to "an ascetic lifestyle" - That would be crackeroonies... I would call you into obedience to Christ through His Apostolic Church, but never to an ascetic lifestyle - Trying to do this outside the Church is a sure fire path to spiritual disaster - With very grave dangers, and the potential for insanity and suicide... The only SAFE place to do this is WITHIN the apostolic Church, and at its direction, and most certainly NOT on one's own...

Arsenios

[/QUOTE]
Michael
[/QUOTE]

[Adam]

I have read all of Unseen Warfare. I am Charismatic, so I did not find the supernaturalism over-stated. I did question whether asceticism needs to be so severe. It's great that someone fits in so well at the same time with Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Pentecostal.
Adam