Writing Your Torah

[JohnnyP]

Mitzvah 16. That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15). See Torah.

Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

• Are Jews here doing this?
• Should Christians, Muslims, and other non-Jewish believers in God do this, to define which of God's Laws they think should be observed, and which shouldn't or don't need to be, from the Jewish perspective?

Follow-up primarily for non-Jews, although Jews may weigh in:

• Which of the 613 Mitzvot do you feel are valid and try to follow?
• Which do you feel are unnecessary or even abolished today?

You can discuss and focus on as many or few as you like, why you think they are necessary, why they aren't, why they shouldn't be at all. You can list Mitzvot numbers from Judaism 101 or other sources in THIS THREAD from the Judaism area.

[Paprika]

The song isn't the Torah, so I'm really puzzled at how that conclusion can be reached.

[shunyadragon]

I agree Writing the song is not writing the law. sort of urging people to write prose, poetry and songs.

[JohnnyP]

The song isn't the Torah, so I'm really puzzled at how that conclusion can be reached.

The implication here is that the song is the Law, this is how it's interpreted in Judaism:

Deuteronomy 31:22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Deuteronomy 32:44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Deuteronomy 32:45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

So question for non-Jews could be, even if you think it is not commanded here, would writing your own Torah of God's Laws be helpful, to know which you think apply to you and which don't? For example from Judaism 101 many Christians may accept #1-10 right away -- to know God exists, no blasphemy, etc.

However for #144 Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts (Lev. 11:4) (CCN93) non-Jews may disregard that. Etc.

[Paprika]

The implication here is that the song is the Law, this is how it's interpreted in Judaism:

The text doesn't support it.

This is the song, and not the law.

[JohnnyP]

The text doesn't support it.

This is the song, and not the law.

At this point all of the Laws are not replicated, rather what you've cited is an accompaniment to Moses speaking the Law to the people:

Deuteronomy 32:44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Deuteronomy 32:45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

What you cited isn't about commands for people to observe, but about what God does. So the Book of the Law is the same as the song, a witness.

Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

[Paprika]

The content of the Law and the song are different. While they may share the function of being a witness, that doesn't imply identity. Moreover, the referent of 'this song' and 'this book' are not necessarily the same thing, and you have not shown that they are.

[JohnnyP]

The content of the Law and the song are different. While they may share the function of being a witness, that doesn't imply identity. Moreover, the referent of 'this song' and 'this book' are not necessarily the same thing, and you have not shown that they are.

I have. Much of what you cited is all about Laws of idolatry anyway. It's an accompaniment to Laws, an additional admonition to remember the Law and not stray from it.

Psalms 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Psalms 119:54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

Psalms 119:55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

[Paprika]

I have. Much of what you cited is all about Laws of idolatry anyway. It's an accompaniment to Laws, an additional admonition to remember the Law and not stray from it.

You have not. It is an accompaniment, yes, but it is not the Law itself.

Psalms 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Psalms 119:54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

Psalms 119:55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

The speaker is saying that his songs contains God's commandments, not that the 'song' in Deut 31 is equivalent to the Law.

[JohnnyP]

You have not. It is an accompaniment, yes, but it is not the Law itself.

The speaker is saying that his songs contains God's commandments, not that the 'song' in Deut 31 is equivalent to the Law.

Do you expect all of God's Laws -- like much of Leviticus -- to be repeated in Deuteronomy 31, in order for them to be part of the song?

Once again it's implied that God's Laws are what is stated, it's not ever implied they are separate things:

Deuteronomy 32:44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Deuteronomy 32:45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

Deuteronomy 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Anyway one point of this thread is mainly for Gentile Christians to explore how we may really think about how some of God's Laws apply to us, how others don't, and discuss. We can still write our own Torah and reason as to why it includes some Laws and excludes others, regardless of what you think Deuteronomy 31:19 means. One goal in mind being to be more thoroughly prepared in an apologetic setting when faced with accusations of cherrypicking our favorite Laws and neglecting others out of personal desire and convenience.

[Paprika]

Do you expect all of God's Laws -- like much of Leviticus -- to be repeated in Deuteronomy 31, in order for them to be part of the song?

Once again it's implied that God's Laws are what is stated, it's not ever implied they are separate things:

The song contains none of the laws; it has no command or any of the Mosaic Law in its content whatsoever. Therefore it is clear that the song is neither the Law nor a synecdoche of it.

You're choosing to be deliberately obtuse. Taken in isolation, it is possible that the referents of "this"'s are the same, but the context rules it out.

We can still write our own Torah and reason as to why it includes some Laws and excludes others, regardless of what you think Deuteronomy 31:19 means. One goal in mind being to be more thoroughly prepared in an apologetic setting when faced with accusations of cherrypicking our favorite Laws and neglecting others out of personal desire and convenience.

Agreed. Before TWeb was reborn, I started my own exploration into the issue, and have learnt a lot through the process.

[JohnnyP]

The song contains none of the laws; it has no command or any of the Mosaic Law in its content whatsoever. Therefore it is clear that the song is neither the Law nor a synecdoche of it.

You're choosing to be deliberately obtuse. Taken in isolation, it is possible that the referents of "this"'s are the same, but the context rules it out.

Again, that you would expect every Law given in the Pentateuch to be restated in order for it to be included is reading it too literally. Context of "Deuteronomy 32:44 ..spake all the words of this song" and "Deuteronomy 32:46...all the words which I testify among you this day...all the words of this law" suggests Deuteronomy 32:1-43 accompanies a stating of all the Laws in those books, they are all simply not restated here which would be highly redundant. Some other commentary relating my own position:

..."the rabbis regularly understood Deut 31:19...to refer not only to the specific song that follows, but to the Torah as a whole..." -Deuteronomy and Exhortation in Hebrews

It is a positive command incumbent on every Jewish man to write a Torah scroll for himself, as [Deuteronomy 31:19] states: "Now, write for yourselves this song." Our sages received the interpretation of this verse as: Write the entire Torah which contains this song [Ha'azinu]. -Torah.org

[Xtian Rabinovich]

It says to speak the words in the ears of the children of Israel. This is the "Oral" part of the Torah-text. It's the cantillation that allows the letters to be broken down into words and phrases. The Oral-Torah is expressly forbidden to be "written" down. Even the cantillation, the punctuation, is not allowed to be placed on the synagogue scroll. The scroll in any synagogue is written without punctuation.

The written Torah-text is placed in the Ark of the Covenant, and the song, the cantillation (which transforms into punctuation) is taught verbally to Israel. The two are never to be combined in an authoritative Torah-text. In this way, the text remains open to the possibility of a new Hymn being taught, which would amount to the letters of the text being broken down differently, into different words, and different sentences, telling a different story.

. . . For those unfamiliar with the traditions, the Torah-text received by Moses was a consonant only text There were no vowels, and no punctuation, no breaks whatsoever. Just a long string of consonants:

אלחדהאוודנסנוותהתהועוהפנאותנתאהד
אחסוופנפואותנוותנעווסנאנתוונסאואודונ
דסאהפלאלפדהאפחדאלותלנפוואנתנוו

It would look something like that.

In English it would be like this:

mnvbghjtyrwsdvbmnbxypklqwbvnhgftypl
pkjhbhmncvxzwqrytghbvzxcbmnhgfdswq
wqynmmbmrdghcvzbcnmkjlqwpkjhdghm

[JohnnyP]

In this way, the text remains open to the possibility of a new Hymn being taught, which would amount to the letters of the text being broken down differently, into different words, and different sentences, telling a different story.

I'm glad you brought this up. Do you see a relationship to these ideas?

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

As to a different story, if you can clarify:

Does it only relate to Deuteronomy 32:1-43, or all of Torah as expressed in the Pentateuch.

If Torah, does it relate to changing God's Laws, or to changing application of Laws in different circumstances.

[Paprika]

Again, that you would expect every Law given in the Pentateuch to be restated in order for it to be included is reading it too literally. Context of "Deuteronomy 32:44 ..spake all the words of this song" and "Deuteronomy 32:46...all the words which I testify among you this day...all the words of this law" suggests Deuteronomy 32:1-43 accompanies a stating of all the Laws in those books, they are all simply not restated here which would be highly redundant.

A explanation which takes into account the fact that no law is found in the song would be that God asked Moses to write and speal of two separate things, the law and the book, which also have different functions.
The song foretells the rebellion of Israel and God's punishment of Israel for not following the law. Thus Moses says "take to heart all the words of [the song]" so that you will know the consequences of breaking the law and command them to your children so that they will be careful to do "all the words of the law"

Some other commentary relating my own position:...-Deuteronomy and Exhortation in Hebrews

Let's see what else the book says on the same page:

The primary implications of the relationship between the Song and the torah are given by this arrangement, though scholars have drawn different conclusions as to the nature of their association...Alternatively, the Song has been viewed either as a torah (distinct from the torah of chapters 1-30) or as part of the torah already present in the whole book

So the experts disagree. When this is so just quoting one expert opinion does not suffice at all. What does the author think?

Either explanation is possible as both accord the song torah 'status', yet one wonders whether either fully captures the Song's torah 'scope'. Since Deut 32:44 incorporates both the singing/teaching of the Song and the giving of the law, the two are more likely treated as distinct, but complementary, parallel entities

Look, you can't just cherrypick one expert opinion from a source, especially when the author of the source lists other expert opinions and himself prefers one different from one you cited.