Some questions on praying to saints

[JonAdams]

Hello people,

I have a couple of questions about this, if people are willing to answer.

Firstly, a small (but, imho, significant) one, why is it called "praying to saints"? I understand that what is really happening is people are asking the dead saints to pray for them so why is it not called something more appropriate like, "requesting intercessions from saints" or similar (it might reduce missunderstandings).

Secondly, is there a restriction on who you can request prayer from? That is, are you only allowed to request prayer from "offical" saints (as an aside could someone explain the criteria for this), or can you ask any dead christian (a family member or old friend)?

Thank you.

Jonathan.

[spiritmech]

I think the terminology is used just because of habit or laziness. I don't really have a problem with the term "praying to saints" because I know it really means "asking for intercession."

I do wish that people were more clear and consistent, it'd help reduce any confusion.
sm

[VFarris01]

Since we are "asking questions:"

1) When did the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people begin? (Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean.)

2) Who authorized the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people?

3) Why would we want to ask "dead" people to intercede on our behalf anyway?

[Jasta]

<snip - already answered>

Secondly, is there a restriction on who you can request prayer from? That is, are you only allowed to request prayer from "offical" saints (as an aside could someone explain the criteria for this), or can you ask any dead christian (a family member or old friend)?

For someone to be cannonized (made a Saint in the eyes of the RCC), I believe the church must have verifiable evidence that someone has asked (in prayer) for something of this person, and have had it come to pass. Hypothetically, if Pope Benedict became ill and a few cardinals prayed to JPII for intercession with God to ask for the return of his health, then Pope Benedict felt better the next morning, it could be seen as evidence that JPII has intercessory power with God.

Catholic/Orthox peeps correct me if I'm wrong.

Since we are "asking questions:"

1) When did the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people begin? (Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean.)

I bet the answer will include reference to Paul asking for the prayers of Christians in his letters. Little thought given to the difference between Christians praying to GOD for the well being of another (Paul) and Christians praying to SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD for intercession with God. That arguement has been used often but it's never lined up in my head, I'd like to hear it explained as well.

[Adam]

Firstly, a small (but, imho, significant) one, why is it called "praying to saints"? I understand that what is really happening is people are asking the dead saints to pray for them so why is it not called something more appropriate like, "requesting intercessions from saints" or similar (it might reduce missunderstandings).
Jonathan.

Not so fast. The theologically correct answer to Question #1 has been given by SpiritMech, but the actually correct answer is that most Roman Catholics in practice do pray to saints. They are supposed to be going through God to contact the saint they want prayer from, but in reality they just go ahead and pray to the saint and ask the saint to pray to God on their behalf. Many of them are afraid of God, particularly of God the Father, so the usual states of the petitioners are that they pray to the saint. They especially like to pray to Mary, believing that as a woman she is nicer and that as Jesus's mother she has the inside track with her Son. They are supposed to be praying to God through the saint, but in practice they mostly pray to the saint and expect the saint to be holy enough to pray to God for them. Humble, but theologically improper.
Adam

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Since we are "asking questions:"

1) When did the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people begin? (Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean.)

2) Who authorized the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people?

3) Why would we want to ask "dead" people to intercede on our behalf anyway?

Will God still be your God after you die???

Is God Biblically the God of the living, or of the dead?

So that the holy ones of God, are they alive? Or are they dead?

When they were in the world, they had matured and mortified their flesh, yes? So that they were dead in the world, yet ALIVE in Spirit. And Paul said, did he not, that "For me, to die is gain."?? So do you really think that Paul somehow, after he passed from this earth, has stopped being ALIVE IN CHRIST???

And if you affirm with me that he is STILL alive in Christ, do you somehow think that he has STOPPED praying for us all?? Do you think that somehow his union with Christ PREVENTS him from being aware of our petitions to him for intercession?

And does not the Bible teach us intercession, to pray for one another?

And has not the Church universally prayed to departed saints for their intercession from the 2nd century? And does not the Bible tell us that the Church that has universally done this is the ground and the pillar of truth?

And do you really want us to follow you, who are only a man, with only human doctrines, instead of the teaching of the Church, Whose Head is Christ?

Can you see what you are up against, Mr. Farris? You are kicking at the goads... Christ incarnated and established His Church on the Earth, in the flesh, and elevated it in the Power of the Holy Spirit. THAT is where you will find truth. And not in your own private interpretation of the revelation of the Bible...

Arsenios

[Amazing Rando]

What is the difference between "praying to saints" and what Saul did in 1 Samuel 28 in summoning Samuel?

[furay]

What is the difference between "praying to saints" and what Saul did in 1 Samuel 28 in summoning Samuel?

A) The Prophet Samuel was not in heaven.
B) Saul went through a witch to talk to "him" (some Father's say they conversed with a demon).

[Amazing Rando]

A) The Prophet Samuel was not in heaven.
B) Saul went through a witch to talk to "him" (some Father's say they conversed with a demon).

That's interesting- where do you hypothesize he might have been?

The narrative in Samuel itself seems to be clear that the witch had actually summoned Samuel...

[VFarris01]

Since we are "asking questions:"

1) When did the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people begin? (Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean.)

2) Who authorized the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people?

3) Why would we want to ask "dead" people to intercede on our behalf anyway?

Will God still be your God after you die???

Is God Biblically the God of the living, or of the dead?

So that the holy ones of God, are they alive? Or are they dead?

You ignored what I "asked" you not to do, huh, George? Which part of, "Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean," in question #1 did you not understand? All of it? (fyi, SA, means exactly what you are being, a • Edited by a Moderator •)

... has not the Church universally prayed to departed saints for their intercession from the 2nd century?

You have only "tradition" to back this up, so, NO, it has not.

And does not the Bible tell us that the Church that has universally done this is the ground and the pillar of truth?

Ah, I hate to spring this one on you but, "pillar and ground" does not mean "that which determines what is."

1) When did the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people begin? (Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean.)

George's answer: The 2nd century. (However, there is nothing to confirm this except "tradition.")

2) Who authorized the practice of asking intercession from "dead" people?

George's answer: The "church" because it determines what is and what is not the "truth." (I would have thought JC or God or the HS (perhaps even an Apostle) would have been a better answer.)

3) Why would we want to ask "dead" people to intercede on our behalf anyway?

George's answer: The Bible teaches us to pray for one another. (Except he cannot quote the verse where a "dead" person is ever asked to pray for a "live" person.)

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

Please refrain from the profanity.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[furay]

That's interesting- where do you hypothesize he might have been?

Sheol/Hades/wherever the OT saints were before Christ busted them out and brought them to heaven.

[Amazing Rando]

Sheol/Hades/wherever the OT saints were before Christ busted them out and brought them to heaven.

Gotcha. I guess that's what Paul's referring to in Ephesians 4.

[Alden]

You ignored what I "asked" you not to do, huh, George? Which part of, "Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean," in question #1 did you not understand? All of it? (fyi, SA, means exactly what you are being, a • Edited by a Moderator •)

This one doesn't work. You can't ask someone to respond to why we ask for intercession from the saints, and then tell us that we can't use the very reasons for that practice.

Farris, tell us why you are a Christian without mentioning Christ. Tell us why you pray, but say nothing about God.

You have only "tradition" to back this up, so, NO, it has not.

Why do you hold the Bible as truth? Did God set one of your lawn flamingos on fire and project his voice out of it and tell you so? If not, you only have tradition that tells you that the Canon is truth.


You might want to think about and answer what George had to say. The Saints are dead physically, yet alive in Christ. We cannot be surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses" that is made up rotting corpses. The dead witness nothing. You rail against 2000 years of practice, going back to the earliest days of the Church. I'm more inclined to trust the early church fathers and 2000 years of practice than I am inclined to trust the arrogance of VFarris and the constantly shifting legacy of the Reformation.

The Catholics have a saying about these kinds of things. You believe that "everybody is infallible but the Pope" (not that I'm advocating for papal infallability)

Ladies and Gentlemen...Pope Farris.

[JonAdams]

Hello people, thank you for the responses,

For someone to be cannonized (made a Saint in the eyes of the RCC), I believe the church must have verifiable evidence that someone has asked (in prayer) for something of this person, and have had it come to pass. Hypothetically, if Pope Benedict became ill and a few cardinals prayed to JPII for intercession with God to ask for the return of his health, then Pope Benedict felt better the next morning, it could be seen as evidence that JPII has intercessory power with God.

Catholic/Orthox peeps correct me if I'm wrong.

So this would mean you could request intercession any dead christian to "discover" if they should be cannonized, right?

Not so fast. The theologically correct answer to Question #1 has been given by SpiritMech, but the actually correct answer is that most Roman Catholics in practice do pray to saints. They are supposed to be going through God to contact the saint they want prayer from, but in reality they just go ahead and pray to the saint and ask the saint to pray to God on their behalf. Many of them are afraid of God, particularly of God the Father, so the usual states of the petitioners are that they pray to the saint. They especially like to pray to Mary, believing that as a woman she is nicer and that as Jesus's mother she has the inside track with her Son. They are supposed to be praying to God through the saint, but in practice they mostly pray to the saint and expect the saint to be holy enough to pray to God for them. Humble, but theologically improper.

I'm aware of this, which is what my question was hinting at. What I would really like to know is, assuming the RCC (and presumably the Orthodox church has the same problem) are aware of this (how could they not be?) and consider it a problem (they do right?) why not attempt to change the terminology to reduce the risk of this happening? (Yeah it'll be hard but if it helps people move into a more appropriate relationship with God it'd be worth it, yes?)

A further question (and a thought) for those who currently do this. I have recently considered begining the practice myself but one thing that bothers me. I find it very difficult to request prayer from people who are alive. I think this has much to do with opening up to people, requesting prayer for some weakness or sin means admiting that weakness or sin to them and leaves me open to possible ridicule (or similar). What I am worried of, if I begin this practice, is that it will make me less likely to request prayer from the living, after all, if I have hundreds of saints in heaven praying for me, who needs one or two extra here on Earth. So my question is, do you find that asking dead saints to pray for you* makes you more or less likely to ask living saints to pray for you? Do you consider the intercessions of saints in heaven to be somehow, "more effective" (and hence more desirable and important) than the intercessions of people on Earth?
It strikes me that people can very easily use this as a way of avoiding requesting intercessions from (and so opening up to) living members of the church, just as (as Adam pointed out) it can be used to avoid comunicating with God directly.
What do people think?

Jonathan.

-------------
* Yes, I'm really struggling to avoid saying "praying to saints" here .

[furay]

So my question is, do you find that asking dead saints to pray for you* makes you more or less likely to ask living saints to pray for you? Do you consider the intercessions of saints in heaven to be somehow, "more effective" (and hence more desirable and important) than the intercessions of people on Earth?
It strikes me that people can very easily use this as a way of avoiding requesting intercessions from (and so opening up to) living members of the church, just as (as Adam pointed out) it can be used to avoid comunicating with God directly.
What do people think?

You can never have enough people praying for you. If you run through all the recognized Orthodox saints and ask each individual one to pray for you... you'll still be in need of more prayer. Therefore it's faulty reasoning to assume that since you have say 100 saints praying for you in heaven you don't have to ask your family and friends to pray for you also. I tend to think of it more as supplement rather than a replacement.