Some questions on praying to saints

[VFarris01]

Correctly ignoring #35 & #36 I will move on to a post actually having something (barely) worth responding to...

You ignored what I "asked" you not to do, huh, George? Which part of, "Do not be a SA and tell me the "saints" are not dead; you know what I mean," in question #1 did you not understand? All of it? (fyi, SA, means exactly what you are being, a Edited by a moderator.)

This one doesn't work. You can't ask someone to respond to why we ask for intercession from the saints, and then tell us that we can't use the very reasons for that practice.

Yes, I can. I can prove from Scripture only "living" people (that is, people who's body had not died) were asked to give intercessionary prayers. Can you do the same? When "tradition" and Scripture disagree, I side with Scripture.

Where in your bible, does it say that the great cloud of witnesses does not intercede on our behalf? Please provide the verse.

You obviously concede there is not such Bible verse illustrating a "great cloud of witnesses who do intercede on our behalf." You are arguing from silence there is such a "cloud," it was simply left out of scripture. This is among the very good reasons I ignored earlier post by DE and yourself; fallacious argumentation.

Here, you are separating the church into the "living church" and the "dead church" rather than the church militant and the church triumphant. What's your justification. As George rightfully asked: Is God still God after you die? Are the holy ones of the church "alive in Christ"? Does not Christ himself express his wish for believers to be "One"? Does this oneness in Christ end after we cease to see in a mirror but dimly.

Find me one Bible verse, just one, where "dead" people are asked to intercede on the behalf of "live" people instead of your insistence on "argument from silence."

Farris, tell us why you are a Christian without mentioning Christ. Tell us why you pray, but say nothing about God.

Irrelevant

Not really. Answer each question with the criterion provided. You can't do so can you? As I said before, you can't ask for an explanation of a practice, and then say "don't use the major reason[s] you do what you do..

Your argument is irrelevant because:

"I can prove from Scripture only "living" people (that is, people who's body had not died) were asked to give intercessionary prayers. Can you do the same?"

(In response to comments regarding tradition)

[Why do you hold the Bible as truth? Did God set one of your lawn flamingos on fire and project his voice out of it and tell you so? If not, you only have tradition that tells you that the Canon is truth.

Apparantly you do not know the source of Scripture; it is not "tradition."

Translation= "I got nothing, so I'm going to repeat myself." Please answer the question. Why do you hold the scriptures, the canon given it's final form in an ecumenical council, to be true? It's a very simple question. Was it a flaming lawn ornament that told you so, or was there a different reason?

1) Your arguments for the most part begin with ridicule; normally I do not respond to these types of posts.

2) You have proved you do not know the source of Scripture. Scripture is not from some "ecumenical council; Scripture is by "inspiration of God."

3) Why do I believe the Scripture we have is "by inspiration of God?" Well, it is not because a group of men in white robes decided what was "scripture;" it is because I have faith what we consider Scripture is through the inspiration of God.

James 1:2-8 KJV

(2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (3) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. (4) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

"ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." not "All Scripture is given by the "church."

True, scripture is given by inspiration of God. How did we divine what Scripture was though? Why is the Gospel of Thomas not included in the canon? Answer?: A few hundred years of practice, i.e. *gasp*...tradition. You might want to examine Paul's comments in 2 Thess about living by his epistle and according to the "traditions you have been taught" This is God's guidance. There is a difference between the traditions of men and the Tradition the Paul speaks of. One, like the scriptures, is directed of God, the other is not.

So you DO know the source of Scripture.

Were the "traditions" taught to the Thessalonians from man or God? Tell me; what were the "traditions" taught to the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6)? Were they something old? Something new? (Something borrowed? Something blue? I could not resist the temptation.) My point is, since you have no clue what these "traditions" were, you are arging fallaciously; true?

You might want to think about and answer what George had to say. The Saints are dead physically, yet alive in Christ. We cannot be surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses" that is made up rotting corpses. The dead witness nothing.

I can prove from Scripture only "living" people (that is, people who's body had not died) were asked to give intercessionary prayers. Can you do the same? When "tradition" and Scripture disagree, I side with Scripture.

You can prove it from the interpretation of Pope Faris, but only when you ignore, or rather rudely and slopily sidestep, all of the questions others have posed to you.

Answer the questions.

You say.

I can prove it from Scripture. Show me in Scripture where intercession is asked of "dead" people by "live" people; one will do.

Until you provide me with the Scripture I can only assume it is you "rudely and slopily sidestep, all of the questions (I) have posed to you."

You rail against 2000 years of practice, going back to the earliest days of the Church. I'm more inclined to trust the early church fathers and 2000 years of practice than I am inclined to trust the arrogance of VFarris and the constantly shifting legacy of the Reformation.

I am not inclined to trust the "early church fathers" because even they disagreed on MANY points of "doctrine."

2000 years of practice? In your dreams .

When "tradition" and Scripture disagree, I side with Scripture.

you discount a time frame of 2k with "In your dreams" and nothing else?

Since your dreams seem to be the source of your belief, YES.

So your understanding of the way things work is greater than that of those who were in direct or very near contact with the beginnings of the church? Yes people disagreed. Some of them were right, and some of them were wrong, and on many things, we won't know until we reach the other side. I find it odd though, that you would so easily discount the ECFs (many of them martyrs) in favor of your interpretation because they disagreed on "many points of doctrine".

This is simply another of your arguments by ridicule. Did not work then, does not work now.

Ladies and Gentlemen...Pope Farris.

Argument by ridicule; how pathetic. Ridiculing me does not make you right.

Ridicule, perhaps. Your own argumentation, arrogance, and unwillingness to actually deal with anything serve to give your case a bigger black eye than any ridicule that I could ever serve up. However, the point has been made. You are infallible.

Perhaps? Let us try; ABSOLUTELY. What is worse, you even end with ridicule. Since valid argumentation seems to be beyond you I will not respond unless your arguments are "reasonable."

[Alden]

Correctly ignoring #35 & #36 I will move on to a post actually having something (barely) worth responding to...



You obviously concede there is not such Bible verse illustrating a "great cloud of witnesses who do intercede on our behalf." You are arguing from silence there is such a "cloud," it was simply left out of scripture. This is among the very good reasons I ignored earlier post by DE and yourself; fallacious argumentation.


Find me one Bible verse, just one, where "dead" people are asked to intercede on the behalf of "live" people instead of your insistence on "argument from silence."


Your argument is irrelevant because:

"I can prove from Scripture only "living" people (that is, people who's body had not died) were asked to give intercessionary prayers. Can you do the same?"


1) Your arguments for the most part begin with ridicule; normally I do not respond to these types of posts.

2) You have proved you do not know the source of Scripture. Scripture is not from some "ecumenical council; Scripture is by "inspiration of God."

3) Why do I believe the Scripture we have is "by inspiration of God?" Well, it is not because a group of men in white robes decided what was "scripture;" it is because I have faith what we consider Scripture is through the inspiration of God.

James 1:2-8 KJV

(2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (3) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. (4) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

So you DO know the source of Scripture.

Were the "traditions" taught to the Thessalonians from man or God? Tell me; what were the "traditions" taught to the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6)? Were they something old? Something new? (Something borrowed? Something blue? I could not resist the temptation.) My point is, since you have no clue what these "traditions" were, you are arging fallaciously; true?


You say.

I can prove it from Scripture. Show me in Scripture where intercession is asked of "dead" people by "live" people; one will do.

Until you provide me with the Scripture I can only assume it is you "rudely and slopily sidestep, all of the questions (I) have posed to you."


Since your dreams seem to be the source of your belief, YES.


This is simply another of your arguments by ridicule. Did not work then, does not work now.


Perhaps? Let us try; ABSOLUTELY. What is worse, you even end with ridicule. Since valid argumentation seems to be beyond you I will not respond unless your arguments are "reasonable."

C'mon Faris! Are you actually going to answer any of the direct questions that I have repeatedly asked you? And no, don't say "argument by ridicule". Have I ridiculed what I see as arrogance? Yes? Has the sum of my posts been, "you are an arrogant poopy-face"? No. I have posed you direct questions that you continue to dismiss without answering. Please do so, if you can, this time with some substance.

[VFarris01]

C'mon Faris! Are you actually going to answer any of the direct questions that I have repeatedly asked you? And no, don't say "argument by ridicule". Have I ridiculed what I see as arrogance? Yes? Has the sum of my posts been, "you are an arrogant poopy-face"? No. I have posed you direct questions that you continue to dismiss without answering. Please do so, if you can, this time with some substance.

I am still waiting on one of your so-called "direct questions."

The "sum" of your posts have indeed been pointless ridicule.

Because I do not want to answer your ridiculeous questions is a personal preference. Your name-calling does not help either.

Since valid argumentation seems to be beyond your ability I will continue to not respond until your arguments become "reasonable."

[Adam]

I am still waiting on one of your so-called "direct questions."

The "sum" of your posts have indeed been pointless ridicule.

Because I do not want to answer your ridiculeous questions is a personal preference. Your name-calling does not help either.

Since valid argumentation seems to be beyond your ability I will continue to not respond until your arguments become "reasonable."

Since you refuse to own up to what you are, Vic,
I will continue to regard you as being a Seventh Day Adventist.
You argue with as blatant a disregard for logic and history as they do.
Even your regard for the Bible depends upon arguing in a circle.
Adam

[Jasta]

Since you refuse to own up to what you are, Vic,
I will continue to regard you as being a Seventh Day Adventist.

I guess that's an insult, so I'll pass over it.

You argue with as blatant a disregard for logic and history as they do. Even your regard for the Bible depends upon arguing in a circle.
Adam

Here's what you may have missed reading, it seems to cut whatever circle of reasoning you were referring to:

Why do I believe the Scripture we have is "by inspiration of God?" Well, it is not because a group of men in white robes decided what was "scripture;" it is because I have faith what we consider Scripture is through the inspiration of God.

...posting because I also would like to see scriptural support for requesting intercession from the dead.

I'm almost through Augustine's Confessions and I read nothing of Saints' Intercessions. A prominent Catholic thinker (awesome book, IMO) who writes an entire book as a prayer directly to God, mentions nothing of intercession.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I ran across the following on another list, written by a convert to Christianity from Islam. Emerging from the Islamic faith, he had many of the same gut level recoilings that some of our more fundamentalistically minded brethren here seem to have when it comes to praying for and to the dead. So this is Fr. Dan, speaking of his difficulties with this Orthodox practice:

__________________________________________________
Being a former Muslim, turned into Presbyterian-Evangelical-Charismatic Christian, before I became an Orthodox Christian , then a priest, I can appreciate the concerns expressed in this dicussion about prayer to Mary. Because I even had difficulty to pray to the "human being" Jesus. Slowly, after I understood more about Jesus Christ, I began to develop an ability to pray to Him.

When I became an Orthodox Christian, and was in Mount Athos Greece, I was taken by surprise when I was asked to "kiss the bones of dead people" ( I mean to venerate relics) and before that when I was in Korea to kiss "pictures" ( Icons) , my stomach got really sick. Slowly I got more difficulties and struggles when I see people are talking to saints and the Virgin Mary. I pondered for some months whether my decision to become Orthodox was wrong.

Slowly I began to learn that it was not.

As it was a slow process for me to be able to pray to Jesus, so it was also a slow process for me to understand the significance of the relics, the saints, the icons, and the Virgin Mary. In regard to icon , I understood that the underlying theological basis is the incarnation, and so is the venerataion of relics.

In regard to relics I understood the underlying theological basis was the incarnation, bodily resurrection, and the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Even though I have understood it theologically, I just couldn't jump to kiss all bones and relics that I found. Because I would not do it if I don't have to. But I did not see it any more as an act of idolatry, but an act of respect to the underlying theological basis.

In regard to the Saints it is more ecclesiological and soteriological than it is related to the Doctrine of God --within the context of Dogmatic/Systematic Theology. When it is seen from the point of view of the Doctrine of God, then yes, I can see that prayer to the Saints, espeacillay to Mary is an idolatry. I agree.

But when seen from the doctine of the Church, that all saints are alive in God, and that in the Holy Spirit we are in Communion with all the saints, whether they are still alive in the flesh, or they are already alive in their new life in Paradise. Therefore to contact and to ask the prayers of any saints is not an act of idolatry but an act of communion.

So that is why in my Indonesian translation of the Church's liturgical books, I usually translate it not as " Prayer to the Theotokos" ( remember my Islamic surrounding is very sensitive about it) but as " "Asking the Prayer of the Theototokos to help with our prayer".

When I see the texts that says as though Theotokos has a power, I see it in the light of the Doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, where the Holy Spirit can give a person the power of knowing before it happens, and the gift of power and miracles. Also I see it in the light of the doctrine of "theosis" where having been glorified, Mary is "a partaker of the divine nature" (II Petrus 1:4), so the power of God works in and through her prayer.

Therefore the Power is not of Mary, but of the Holy Spirit, and of God. Mary is requested this prayer because the prayer of the righteous person is having much effect before the throne of God. Therefore Mary is not a goddess, and we do not pray to her, as we pray to God. But we ask her to pray for us, as a member of the One Church. Here power is the not because of her being a goddess but because she lives completely in the Holy Spirit, so that the Holy Spirit is working in her.

That is the solution I got, with this problem Yet, for me, my spirituality is a God-Centered spirituality, not Mary-centered one. Thank you.

Fr. Dan
_____________________________________

So even the Good Indonesian Father Dan can have difficulty with the matter of praying to "dead" saints. His solution is telling, because it recognizes the Holy Spiritual nature of the Communion of the Church, and the incarnational significance. So that without such veneration and intercession, we make of our faith but a head-trip of ideas, and discard the [very Biblical] understanding of the body as the Temple of the Holy Spirit, whereIN we encounter God on Earth in the flesh.

And the interesting thing is that we are called to mortify the flesh, and turn from it in self denial and ascetic struggle, SO THAT we can purify our hearts, wherein we find our spiritual communion with God in prayer...

Brother Farris, I am still awaiting your confirmation of your prayers for me - Will you please pray for your brother Arsenios? Will you pray for him with tears and trembling, as Paul did for the Ekklessia?

Arsenios

[VFarris01]

Since you refuse to own up to what you are, Vic, I will continue to regard you as being a Seventh Day Adventist.

I guess that's an insult, so I'll pass over it.

Not much insight required to identify that ad hominem, eh, Jasta.

As to what I am... I am a very simply, a Christian (Did anyone happen to notice the little gold cross below my name?).

Becoming a member of the "church" is not a prerequisite to salvation, becoming a member of the "church" is the result of being saved.

I see Adam is from California and is an accountant... a few of my questions about him have now been answered (for the people in Rio Linda, that was intended as an insult).

You argue with as blatant a disregard for logic and history as they do. Even your regard for the Bible depends upon arguing in a circle.

Here's what you may have missed reading, it seems to cut whatever circle of reasoning you were referring to:

Why do I believe the Scripture we have is "by inspiration of God?" Well, it is not because a group of men in white robes decided what was "scripture;" it is because I have faith what we consider Scripture is through the inspiration of God.

EXACTLY, Thank you Jasta...

[Jasta]

VF01 ^^^



George B:

A couple of Fr Dan's paragraphs there seem a little difficult. Am I reading it right by coming to the conclusion that he draws a different conclusion when considering the "Doctrine of God" then when considering the "Doctrine of the Church?"

He says: "When it is seen from the point of view of the Doctrine of God, then yes, I can see that prayer to the Saints, [especially] to Mary is an [example of] idolatry. I agree."

Then he says: "But when seen from the [doctrine] of the Church, that ... to ask the prayers of any saints is not an act of idolatry but an act of communion."

This is confusing, for a green youngster-in-Christ like me. A Fr of the Church admitting that his Church's doctrine contradicts God's doctrine? Not on something as peripheral as cellphones in the cathedral, but Idolatry... which is a fair share more serious.

Did I misinterpret something there?

[VFarris01]

Brother Farris, I am still awaiting your confirmation of your prayers for me - Will you please pray for your brother Arsenios? Will you pray for him with tears and trembling, as Paul did for the Ekklessia?

Why are you still begging? Did I tell you, you must not beg?

When you pray to your "hallowed" "dead" saints do you beg the same way? Are you "still awaiting their (your) confirmation of their (your) prayers for you (me)?"

Matthew 7:7 KJV

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (parallel Luke 11:9)

Matthew 21:22 KJV

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 11:22 KJV

But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

John 14:13-14 KJV

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7 KJV

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 16:23 KJV

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Why, in the face of this evidence, are you still asking "dead" people to intercede on your behalf?

[Jezz]

Just a quick one:

Matthew 7:7 KJV

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (parallel Luke 11:9)

Matthew 21:22 KJV

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 11:22 KJV

But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

John 14:13-14 KJV

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7 KJV

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 16:23 KJV

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Why, in the face of this evidence, are you still asking "dead" people to intercede on your behalf?

Why, in the face of this evidence, did Ss Paul, Silas and Timothy still ask for live people to intercede on their behalf (1 Thessalonians 5:25)? Did they not know that God would do whatever they asked? Why didn't they pray to God directly?

[VFarris01]

Why, in the face of this evidence, did Ss Paul, Silas and Timothy still ask for live people to intercede on their behalf (1 Thessalonians 5:25)? Did they not know that God would do whatever they asked? Why didn't they pray to God directly?

I was actually considering posting those verses as well, but, I thought 6 was enough and I wanted to see if someone would "call" me on it (believe it or not).

See my post 46, where I said:

"I can prove from Scripture only "living" people (that is, people who's body had not died) were asked to give intercessionary prayers. Can you do the same (show Scripture were "dead" people were asked to give intercessionary prayers, vf)?"

In doing so you have proven my point:

"The precident from Scripture is LIVING people (those whose body was still alive) were asked to make intercessionary prayers."

Show me the precident from Scripture of DEAD people (those whose body was NOT still alive) being asked to make intercessionary prayers and you may just have a point.

For the record, and I have said it before, I do not care if you ask dead people to intercede on your (our) behalf. What does no harm can, imo, only help.

However, on the other hand, I do not believe "prayers" to the "dead" was a practice of early Christianity nor one authorized from Scriptural precident.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Brother Farris, I am still awaiting your confirmation of your prayers for me - Will you please pray for your brother Arsenios? Will you pray for him with tears and trembling, as Paul did for the Ekklessia?

Why are you still begging? Did I tell you, you must not beg?

My brother - Please do not be angry with me and withold from my miserableness your prayers of intercession on my behalf to Christ our God. Please tell me that you have prayed for me, that you are praying for me, and that you know that I, being the chief of sinners, am more in desperate need of your prayers than anyone you can imagine.

Will you please pray for me, in the holy fear of God, with trembling and love for your poor brother who is in such dire need? Why have you not done so and told me? Trembling prayers are Biblical, yes? Did not Paul suffer for the sake of the Church, and pray for Her with trembling? Can you not do the same for me, and tell me so, as Paul did?

Thank you for your prayers for me...

Arsenios the Poor...

[VFarris01]

My brother - Please do not be angry with me and withold from my miserableness your prayers of intercession on my behalf to Christ our God. Please tell me that you have prayed for me, that you are praying for me, and that you know that I, being the chief of sinners, am more in desperate need of your prayers than anyone you can imagine.

Will you please pray for me, in the holy fear of God, with trembling and love for your poor brother who is in such dire need? Why have you not done so and told me? Trembling prayers are Biblical, yes? Did not Paul suffer for the sake of the Church, and pray for Her with trembling? Can you not do the same for me, and tell me so, as Paul did?

Thank you for your prayers for me...

I have prayed for you George; I have prayed for you to quit begging me to pray for you.

[Jezz]

I was actually considering posting those verses as well, but, I thought 6 was enough and I wanted to see if someone would "call" me on it (believe it or not).

I believe you.

But what is the relevance of your first 6 verses then? They do not speak against the practice of asking sleeping saints for their intercession.

In doing so you have proven my point:

"The precident from Scripture is LIVING people (those whose body was still alive) were asked to make intercessionary prayers."

Show me the precident from Scripture of DEAD people (those whose body was NOT still alive) being asked to make intercessionary prayers and you may just have a point.

My point was entirely unrelated to that. It was to show that the verses you listed were irrelevant to dealing with the question of intercession.

I don't expect to see examples of asking the departed saints for their prayers in the Scripture. After all, most of them were still alive when the Scripture was still being written.

For the record, and I have said it before, I do not care if you ask dead people to intercede on your (our) behalf. What does no harm can, imo, only help.

Fair enough.

However, on the other hand, I do not believe "prayers" to the "dead" was a practice of early Christianity nor one authorized from Scriptural precident.

If you want to stick to "Scripture", then you have a reasonable case. I freely admit that there is no clear precendent in Scripture for praying to saints - as I noted, this is not surprising because the Saints were still alive at that stage.

However, if you want to talk about the practice of early Christianity, you are tredding on increasingly thinner ice. There are inscriptions in catacombs from a very early time, asking Ss Paul and Peter to pray for them.

[Jezz]

I have prayed for you George; I have prayed for you to quit begging me to pray for you.

And when people came up to Christ and begged Him to heal them, did He pray to His Father in heaven to send them away? Or did He do what they asked?

Shouldn't you be emulating Christ's example?