Smith and Megalomania

[Krusader]

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the mental health status of Joseph Smith. I've read some papers relating specific problems back to his youth and the problem he had with his ulcerated leg.

Megalomania is a mental disorder characterized by delusions of grandeur. I wonder what a mental-health practitioner might say today if a patient came into the clinic and said:

"The whole earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves of centuries, am impregnable...I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of the universities, with truth - diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.'" (DHC, vol. 6, p. 78).

These, of course, are the words of Joseph Smith, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, of the LDS Church. It is almost unbelievable to me that Smith could relegate God to being his "right hand man." What true Christian, today, would say such a pompous, incredibly boastful thing?

Perhaps the kindest conclusion one could reach is that Smith suffered from the mental disorder known as megalomania.

[Nosnomis]

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the mental health status of Joseph Smith. I've read some papers relating specific problems back to his youth and the problem he had with his ulcerated leg.

Megalomania is a mental disorder characterized by delusions of grandeur. I wonder what a mental-health practitioner might say today if a patient came into the clinic and said:

"The whole earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves of centuries, am impregnable...I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of the universities, with truth - diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.'" (DHC, vol. 6, p. 78).

These, of course, are the words of Joseph Smith, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, of the LDS Church. It is almost unbelievable to me that Smith could relegate God to being his "right hand man." What true Christian, today, would say such a pompous, incredibly boastful thing?

Perhaps the kindest conclusion one could reach is that Smith suffered from the mental disorder known as megalomania.

What is the DHC?

I might mention that I believe he did combat the errors that man had put into religion, and he certainly did have to deal with mobs and illegal arrests, and I believe that he did use truth to answer questions.

[Bill the Cat]

What is the DHC?

I might mention that I believe he did combat the errors that man had put into religion, and he certainly did have to deal with mobs and illegal arrests, and I believe that he did use truth to answer questions.

DHC= Documented History of the Church

[Nosnomis]

DHC= Documented History of the Church

Thanks.

[Nosnomis]

Yes! A source that I can look up! Hurray!

Ok, I note that you did not footnote at the footnote at the bottom where it clarifies the tone that he used.

Let me quote it.

* Not in the blasphemous sense attributed to him by some anti-Mormon writers: namely, that God was subordinate to him- his right hand man (See Riley's "Founder of Mormonism" ch. x); but in the sense of the passage near the close of his address to "The Green Mountain Boys" (this chapter)-"And Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is my Great Counselor"-reverently said.

I hope that clarifies some things.

[Nosnomis]

Correction

Yes! A source that I can look up! Hurray!

Ok, I note that you did not quote the footnote at the bottom where it clarifies the tone that he used.

Let me quote it.

* Not in the blasphemous sense attributed to him by some anti-Mormon writers: namely, that God was subordinate to him- his right hand man (See Riley's "Founder of Mormonism" ch. x); but in the sense of the passage near the close of his address to "The Green Mountain Boys" (this chapter)-"And Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is my Great Counselor"-reverently said.

I hope that clarifies some things.

Sorry, I was excited and typed too fast.

[Krusader]

Correction


Sorry, I was excited and typed too fast.

Jeth, the footnote you refer to was a spin on what Smith said - obviously, his statement was recognized as pompous idiocy, and the spin-doctor needed to temper Smith's maniacal claims.

Smith's whackiness extended even to calling himself god:

"God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363.

So, Mormon friends, your god is Joseph Smith - like it or lump it!

[Nosnomis]

Jeth, the footnote you refer to was a spin on what Smith said - obviously, his statement was recognized as pompous idiocy, and the spin-doctor needed to temper Smith's maniacal claims.

Smith's whackiness extended even to calling himself god:

"God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363.

So, Mormon friends, your god is Joseph Smith - like it or lump it!

Looking at Exodus 7:1, it says:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharoah: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Note that in both cases where the lowercase "g" was used. Did this mean that the people were to worship them? I believe not. I believe that it meant a powerful representative, a person who was to lead a people, and use the priesthood to direct the people.

I am disappointed that you would accuse us of worshipping Joseph Smith. We worship Heavenly Father, not Joseph Smith.

[Krusader]

Looking at Exodus 7:1, it says:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharoah: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Note that in both cases where the lowercase "g" was used. Did this mean that the people were to worship them? I believe not. I believe that it meant a powerful representative, a person who was to lead a people, and use the priesthood to direct the people.

I am disappointed that you would accuse us of worshipping Joseph Smith. We worship Heavenly Father, not Joseph Smith.

There is no lower case in the Hebrew text. Moses was like a "god" to pharoah - which should be a big clue, Jeth. Pharoah - THE ENEMY of the Jews. Did God ever make Moses a "god" to the Jews.

Get real, Jeth, do you ever read the New Testament? Did Paul, or Peter, or John or Jude ever call themselves a "god" to the Christians? We are living in the New Covenant era. Get your nose in the New Testament and read it for crying out loud.

You "prophet" Smith had an obvious mental health problem, and those trying to justify it are attributing divinity to megalomania!

[Nosnomis]

There is no lower case in the Hebrew text. Moses was like a "god" to pharoah - which should be a big clue, Jeth. Pharoah - THE ENEMY of the Jews. Did God ever make Moses a "god" to the Jews.

Get real, Jeth, do you ever read the New Testament? Did Paul, or Peter, or John or Jude ever call themselves a "god" to the Christians? We are living in the New Covenant era. Get your nose in the New Testament and read it for crying out loud.

You "prophet" Smith had an obvious mental health problem, and those trying to justify it are attributing divinity to megalomania!

What I was getting at, was that both Moses and Joseph Smith were not to tell everyone directly God's words, but that they would tell someone else, who would then state the doctrine or command. It is also known as delegating. Moses would tell Aaron, who would then tell Pharoah, or the Israelites when they were in the wilderness. He also called others to help govern the people. Joseph was to tell the Doctrine he was teaching to the Elders, who were to tell it to their families.

[Alexander's Mom]

What I was getting at, was that both Moses and Joseph Smith were not to tell everyone directly God's words, but that they would tell someone else, who would then state the doctrine or command. It is also known as delegating. Moses would tell Aaron, who would then tell Pharoah, or the Israelites when they were in the wilderness. He also called others to help govern the people. Joseph was to tell the Doctrine he was teaching to the Elders, who were to tell it to their families.

~Ok, Jeth, let's try this one more time. Does it really matter how the man said it? First off, you're obviously not all that educated on what the prophet has actually, verbatim, said in any capacity. Second, your assertion that all his arrests were illegal is a further testament to your ignorance. Even Mormon historians admit the illegality of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. In case you're not aware, this is one of the reasons for an "illegal imprisonment". So, let's take another look at everything else the man had ever said, then judge for ourselves on whether he was megalomaniacal. Sound good? Let's also keep in mind that no other prophet of God ever said anything even remotely resembling this apparently wild boasting.
Jeth, I'm sure you've simply heard these things in church and have never felt cause to look them up for yourself. My fiance was the same way. I'm reasonably sure you've never questioned the bishops' interpretations of the New Testament "sound-byte" scriptures quoted at you. I'd like to see you look these things up for yourself and stop relying on others to do the work for you, then direct you to the points they find relevant. You'll always be at the mercy of another's bias that way, Jeth.

[Nosnomis]

~Ok, Jeth, let's try this one more time. Does it really matter how the man said it? First off, you're obviously not all that educated on what the prophet has actually, verbatim, said in any capacity. Second, your assertion that all his arrests were illegal is a further testament to your ignorance. Even Mormon historians admit the illegality of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. In case you're not aware, this is one of the reasons for an "illegal imprisonment". So, let's take another look at everything else the man had ever said, then judge for ourselves on whether he was megalomaniacal. Sound good? Let's also keep in mind that no other prophet of God ever said anything even remotely resembling this apparently wild boasting.
Jeth, I'm sure you've simply heard these things in church and have never felt cause to look them up for yourself. My fiance was the same way. I'm reasonably sure you've never questioned the bishops' interpretations of the New Testament "sound-byte" scriptures quoted at you. I'd like to see you look these things up for yourself and stop relying on others to do the work for you, then direct you to the points they find relevant. You'll always be at the mercy of another's bias that way, Jeth.

I made the statements on what Joseph said based on the DHC books, which I do have. This enabled me to read what all Joseph said at the conference where he gave that quote mentioned earlier, rather than the portion that Crusader used when she claimed that Joseph was claiming to be God. He was explaining that he couldn't finnish teaching a doctrine to them, as his throat was getting sore, and that he would teach the Elders later, just as Moses did with Aaron.

IIRC, the Expositor was not only publishing libelous scandals, it was also trying to repeal the Nauvoo Charter, which was the rules for Nauvoo's government. This would have lead to the disbandment of the Nauvoo Legion, which was one of the defenses set to prevent the Missouri persecutions occuring again in the Illinois setting, and that the decision to shut down the press was based off an earlier case where another city had also declared a printing press to be a public nuisance, and ordered it to be shut down. At least the City Council did not have a mob go set it to the torch and tar and feather those who worked in it, as occurred in Missouri, but rather had it done as an city order that would have enabled the injured parties to recieve full restitution for damages in the courts, had they sought it. Did they seek it? No, they did not seek it, but rather accused the Church of robbing people of their property rights.

When Joseph was originally indicted for this, there was a bail which he met. When the mobs became angry at Joseph meeting the bail, they protested, and the charge was changed to treason, with no bail. The Governor then came to Joseph and asked him to come to Carthage, so that the mobs will not riot, and promised him protection which he did not give.

I might also add that it usually is illegal for a mob to storm a jail and administer the sentence before there is a trial.

Now, I am only 18 years old, and I am not a lawyer, but I do believe that it was necessary for the Expositor to be shut down, if only to help preserve the safety of the Saints until they could finnish the preparations to move west.

[Conductor42]

Your logic would also condemn your Messiah.

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the mental health status of Joseph Smith. I've read some papers relating specific problems back to his youth and the problem he had with his ulcerated leg.

Megalomania is a mental disorder characterized by delusions of grandeur. I wonder what a mental-health practitioner might say today if a patient came into the clinic and said:

"The whole earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves of centuries, am impregnable...I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of the universities, with truth - diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.'" (DHC, vol. 6, p. 78).

These, of course, are the words of Joseph Smith, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, of the LDS Church. It is almost unbelievable to me that Smith could relegate God to being his "right hand man." What true Christian, today, would say such a pompous, incredibly boastful thing?

Perhaps the kindest conclusion one could reach is that Smith suffered from the mental disorder known as megalomania.

[Conductor42]

Looking at Exodus 7:1, it says:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharoah: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Note that in both cases where the lowercase "g" was used. Did this mean that the people were to worship them? I believe not. I believe that it meant a powerful representative, a person who was to lead a people, and use the priesthood to direct the people.

I am disappointed that you would accuse us of worshipping Joseph Smith. We worship Heavenly Father, not Joseph Smith.

The word elokim doesn't neccessarily refer to a "god". And, there is no such thing as a "lowercase" or "capital" letter in Hebrew.

There is no lower case in the Hebrew text. Moses was like a "god" to pharoah - which should be a big clue, Jeth. Pharoah - THE ENEMY of the Jews. Did God ever make Moses a "god" to the Jews.

He did make Moses an elokim. In fact, in the Torah judges are refered to as elokim.

Exodus 22:8--If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (elokim), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

[Krusader]

The word elokim doesn't neccessarily refer to a "god". And, there is no such thing as a "lowercase" or "capital" letter in Hebrew.



He did make Moses an elokim. In fact, in the Torah judges are refered to as elokim.

Exodus 22:8--If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (elokim), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

Yosh, so does the Hebrew, elokim, pertain to judges? I know there's another OT vs.referring to judges as gods - can't remember where, right off, but I know that the Mormons use it to justify their human-to-gods theology.