A hypothetical Question

[Nicholas]

While I kow that Christianity claims that the only way to be saved is if you accept Christ, but make me think for a moment. If a Christian who had been extremely close friends for years and had even went on trips with groups such as the International Red Cross to help alleviate pain and suffering. Shortly after the two men returned they got married and settled down, they each adopted a child from a poverty striken nation in Africa. Suddenly the Christian end of days comes along and he knows that his friend will suffer int he pit of flame, he prays to god to spare him, as he was a good man, and if even if you cannot be saved by works alone that what he had done with his life must mean something.

Well, what happens next?

[Captain Ochre]

Well, what happens next?

I guess the prayer ends at that point.











Seriously, your answer is going to depend on the doctrine, and there are a number of doctrines within the realm of Christian orthodoxy.
People are punished/rewarded according to what they do regardless of salvation. Salvation determines the state in which one gets what is coming to him.

I'm confident you'll get more detailed answers than that, but I think I'm summed it up reasonably well in a short space.

I should add, though it's implicit in my answer above, that the prayer goes unanswered. God does not answer prayers that ask Him to act contrary to His nature (for reasons that are relatively plain).

[Nicholas]

I guess the prayer ends at that point.











Seriously, your answer is going to depend on the doctrine, and there are a number of doctrines within the realm of Christian orthodoxy.
People are punished/rewarded according to what they do regardless of salvation. Salvation determines the state in which one gets what is coming to him.

I'm confident you'll get more detailed answers than that, but I think I'm summed it up reasonably well in a short space.

I should add, though it's implicit in my answer above, that the prayer goes unanswered. God does not answer prayers that ask Him to act contrary to His nature (for reasons that are relatively plain).

Interesting, thanks.

[stevencarrwork]

While I kow that Christianity claims that the only way to be saved is if you accept Christ, but make me think for a moment.

Really?

In Mark 6, Jesus sends the disciples out to preach. The disciples do not know Jesus was the Messiah until Mark 8. Did Jesus care if his disciples preached something that did not save people?

[Captain Ochre]

Really?

In Mark 6, Jesus sends the disciples out to preach. The disciples do not know Jesus was the Messiah until Mark 8. Did Jesus care if his disciples preached something that did not save people?

What do the last three sentences have to do with the question you asked?

Put your argument together for us and it might be worth addressing (even if it does veer off on a tangent from the OP). As it is, you haven't even detached the bits and pieces from the plastic tree.

[Teallaura]

Nick,

Alternate scenario:

You're a crook. You are really guilty and you're really sorry. You're in prison for your crimes. You try very hard to make amends - you work in the prisons hospital and take care of the sick. You're nice to the guards and even help break up fights and get people to get along.

But you're still guilty of your original crime. Being nice to other folks doesn't undo the harm you did to someone else, even if you didn't see that harm for yourself.

The time comes that the Governor, purely out of compassion (since you still guilty boy), knowing that you are truly sorry for what you've done and will do everything you can not to do it again (repentance), offers you a pardon.

When you don't take it, for whatever reason (don't feel worthy, think it's a fake), you don't get out of prison. You have opportunity and means, but you refuse to use them. You keep doing good stuff behind bars, but it never erases your record, only a pardon can do that and it never gets you out of jail.

Is there something inherently unfair about letting someone remain where they are because they refuse to use the means at their disposal to get out? I don't think so.

Using works to mediate with God is like driving nails with a screwdriver - it's never going to work, you're using the wrong tool. If you sit there insisting on using that screwdriver when a perfectly good hammer is offered to you repeatedly and is sitting within your grasp, who's to blame when the nails never go in the board?

Jesus offers us a pardon - a means to erase our record, to start clean with God - but we insist on doing it our way. Trouble is, our screwdriver isn't any good for the job - our way can't work. He tells us, He shows us, He sends us people to try and get it into our thick skulls - He even whacks us upside the head with a 2x4 to get our attention if that's what it takes (it did with me - boy, does it ever hurt! But it was my own fault for being willfully stupid - I'm just thankful He loved me enough to bother!) - but ultimately, He lets us choose what we will do, even if it's hopelessly stupid. The fault, when we've chosen to reject Him, is our own.

Back to your scenario:

Your unsaved guy presumably did just exactly that - he rejected the pardon offered him. He knew about the Gospel from his friend (or the Christian is gonna have some 'splaining to do!) - but rejected it. He sounds like a nice guy - but he's still guilty and still trying to drive nails with a screwdriver. Tons of work with the wrong tool just gets you tired - it cannot and will not get the job done. It's tragic when the right tool was there all along and even offered to the guy - but he chose to ignore it. No amount of work will ever overcome using the wrong tool - or rejecting a pardon.

He's judged for his guilt, not his works. It's a sentencing, not a parole board. It's not designed to decide if he can come back into society, but to judge whether or not he is guilty. Without the pardon, he stands condemned. It's horribly tragic - more so because all he had to do was take the pardon, but he didn't. He's guilty of the crime and of rejecting the pardon, a pardon bought at a horrible price to the Buyer. It only compounds his guilt that he rejected it. Works don't change facts - he's still guilty. A pardon could have erased that guilt, but he wouldn't use it when he had the chance. Works won't fix the problem now - that's just driving nails with a screwdriver.

Now, he's judged on his actual guilt. His friend pleaded his case already - and the pardon had been offered. Now that the Court is in session, it's too late. The friends pleas are heard, but the evidence is too strong. The friend is only able to even plead before the Court because he has himself accepted the pardon. But he didn't buy it - he doesn't get to decide whom to give it to - he can't give his friend his own pardon because he can't afford to buy such a pardon. The One who could, and did, was rejected. No pardon, the evidence stands and he is condemned.

His friends pleas didn't fall on but one set of deaf ears - the condemned mans own. He had the choice all along. He simply didn't use the means given him and eventually, it was too late.

[Nicholas]

Nick,

Alternate scenario:

You're a crook. You are really guilty and you're really sorry. You're in prison for your crimes. You try very hard to make amends - you work in the prisons hospital and take care of the sick. You're nice to the guards and even help break up fights and get people to get along.

But you're still guilty of your original crime. Being nice to other folks doesn't undo the harm you did to someone else, even if you didn't see that harm for yourself.

The time comes that the Governor, purely out of compassion (since you still guilty boy), knowing that you are truly sorry for what you've done and will do everything you can not to do it again (repentance), offers you a pardon.

When you don't take it, for whatever reason (don't feel worthy, think it's a fake), you don't get out of prison. You have opportunity and means, but you refuse to use them. You keep doing good stuff behind bars, but it never erases your record, only a pardon can do that and it never gets you out of jail.

Is there something inherently unfair about letting someone remain where they are because they refuse to use the means at their disposal to get out? I don't think so.

Using works to mediate with God is like driving nails with a screwdriver - it's never going to work, you're using the wrong tool. If you sit there insisting on using that screwdriver when a perfectly good hammer is offered to you repeatedly and is sitting within your grasp, who's to blame when the nails never go in the board?

Jesus offers us a pardon - a means to erase our record, to start clean with God - but we insist on doing it our way. Trouble is, our screwdriver isn't any good for the job - our way can't work. He tells us, He shows us, He sends us people to try and get it into our thick skulls - He even whacks us upside the head with a 2x4 to get our attention if that's what it takes (it did with me - boy, does it ever hurt! But it was my own fault for being willfully stupid - I'm just thankful He loved me enough to bother!) - but ultimately, He lets us choose what we will do, even if it's hopelessly stupid. The fault, when we've chosen to reject Him, is our own.

Back to your scenario:

Your unsaved guy presumably did just exactly that - he rejected the pardon offered him. He knew about the Gospel from his friend (or the Christian is gonna have some 'splaining to do!) - but rejected it. He sounds like a nice guy - but he's still guilty and still trying to drive nails with a screwdriver. Tons of work with the wrong tool just gets you tired - it cannot and will not get the job done. It's tragic when the right tool was there all along and even offered to the guy - but he chose to ignore it. No amount of work will ever overcome using the wrong tool - or rejecting a pardon.

He's judged for his guilt, not his works. It's a sentencing, not a parole board. It's not designed to decide if he can come back into society, but to judge whether or not he is guilty. Without the pardon, he stands condemned. It's horribly tragic - more so because all he had to do was take the pardon, but he didn't. He's guilty of the crime and of rejecting the pardon, a pardon bought at a horrible price to the Buyer. It only compounds his guilt that he rejected it. Works don't change facts - he's still guilty. A pardon could have erased that guilt, but he wouldn't use it when he had the chance. Works won't fix the problem now - that's just driving nails with a screwdriver.

Now, he's judged on his actual guilt. His friend pleaded his case already - and the pardon had been offered. Now that the Court is in session, it's too late. The friends pleas are heard, but the evidence is too strong. The friend is only able to even plead before the Court because he has himself accepted the pardon. But he didn't buy it - he doesn't get to decide whom to give it to - he can't give his friend his own pardon because he can't afford to buy such a pardon. The One who could, and did, was rejected. No pardon, the evidence stands and he is condemned.

His friends pleas didn't fall on but one set of deaf ears - the condemned mans own. He had the choice all along. He simply didn't use the means given him and eventually, it was too late.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation, though you're forgetting one thing, you can drive nails with a hammer, just about any tool can be the right tool if used correctly. Though seriously, now I think should explain part of where I got the idea for my hypothetical situation. On the History Channel there had been a special on the apocryphal texts of the Bible, and if I remember the name correctly, one of them was called the Apocalypse of Peter, and if I remember the details correctly it said that in the end all of the "saved" people would see those in hell and ask God to let them go to heaven, and he would. Now, as it was years ago I probably forgot a couple of things, and they didn't spend alot of time explaining each text, but that's where I got the idea for this hypothetical situation.

[FirstSunday33ad]

While I kow that Christianity claims that the only way to be saved is if you accept Christ, but make me think for a moment. If a Christian who had been extremely close friends for years and had even went on trips with groups such as the International Red Cross to help alleviate pain and suffering. Shortly after the two men returned they got married and settled down, they each adopted a child from a poverty striken nation in Africa. Suddenly the Christian end of days comes along and he knows that his friend will suffer int he pit of flame, he prays to god to spare him, as he was a good man, and if even if you cannot be saved by works alone that what he had done with his life must mean something.

Well, what happens next?

Okay, if I understand you correctly the Christian prayed something like this:

Dear Lord, I know my friend has rejected you and wants nothing to do with you, I know that he rejects your message and your gift of salvation. I know that he prefers to live by his own standards and his own rules and hates the path that you have given us to follow.

But Father, I am asking you to override his free will and deny him this human freedom of choice that you give to all of your children. Ignore his wishes and turn a deaf ear to his statements. What he desires and what he wants is of no significance to me; do instead what I want and bring him into heaven to make me happy.

I think God would ignore that prayer and let the friend decide for himself if he wanted to accept Christ or not as Saviour.

[Teallaura]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation, though you're forgetting one thing, you can drive nails with a hammer, just about any tool can be the right tool if used correctly. Though seriously, now I think should explain part of where I got the idea for my hypothetical situation. On the History Channel there had been a special on the apocryphal texts of the Bible, and if I remember the name correctly, one of them was called the Apocalypse of Peter, and if I remember the details correctly it said that in the end all of the "saved" people would see those in hell and ask God to let them go to heaven, and he would. Now, as it was years ago I probably forgot a couple of things, and they didn't spend alot of time explaining each text, but that's where I got the idea for this hypothetical situation.

I was very careful with my analogy, Nick. You can drive nails with a hammer - but my guy tried a screwdriver. Maybe you can manage with brads - and soft wood. But no screwdriver will drive nails into anything other than balsa - and no one uses nails on balsa - it'll compress and/or split.

Now, to your hypothetical - you're using apocryphal texts for your support. They aren't authoritative by definition - it's like using my new book on geology (several people are spitting on their keyboards right now), which I wrote just using the (very) little I know, to refute plate tectonics (no, I don't have a problem with plate tectonics! ). I simply don't have the credentials or the knowledge to be taken seriously. (No, you don't have to tell me how accurate that assessment is. )

What you're working on is a variant of universal salvation - it's an unorthodox theology. You'd do better to run down to UT and ask those guys if you want to see it supported in Scripture or Gen. Theistics if you want to see how it's torn apart. But an apocryphal text needs some kind of support to be taken seriously. Honestly, had I known that I probably wouldn't have bothered. No offense, it's just not really worth the effort - any more than my geology book would be.

(For those of you still laughing - oh, and breathe!! )

[Workman4 Christ]

While I kow that Christianity claims that the only way to be saved is if you accept Christ, but make me think for a moment. If a Christian who had been extremely close friends for years and had even went on trips with groups such as the International Red Cross to help alleviate pain and suffering. Shortly after the two men returned they got married and settled down, they each adopted a child from a poverty striken nation in Africa. Suddenly the Christian end of days comes along and he knows that his friend will suffer int he pit of flame, he prays to god to spare him, as he was a good man, and if even if you cannot be saved by works alone that what he had done with his life must mean something.

Well, what happens next?

Do you mean "end of days" being the tribulation period?

[Nicholas]

I was very careful with my analogy, Nick. You can drive nails with a hammer - but my guy tried a screwdriver. Maybe you can manage with brads - and soft wood. But no screwdriver will drive nails into anything other than balsa - and no one uses nails on balsa - it'll compress and/or split.

You could, but it's not good for the screw driver.

Now, to your hypothetical - you're using apocryphal texts for your support. They aren't authoritative by definition - it's like using my new book on geology (several people are spitting on their keyboards right now), which I wrote just using the (very) little I know, to refute plate tectonics (no, I don't have a problem with plate tectonics! ). I simply don't have the credentials or the knowledge to be taken seriously. (No, you don't have to tell me how accurate that assessment is. )

What you're working on is a variant of universal salvation - it's an unorthodox theology. You'd do better to run down to UT and ask those guys if you want to see it supported in Scripture or Gen. Theistics if you want to see how it's torn apart. But an apocryphal text needs some kind of support to be taken seriously. Honestly, had I known that I probably wouldn't have bothered. No offense, it's just not really worth the effort - any more than my geology book would be.

(For those of you still laughing - oh, and breathe!! )

I realize they aren't authoritative, otherwise they wouldn't be apocryphal, but my question is this, does this idea actually violate any real rules? The question isn't while theyr'e still alive, it's when they're actually in Hell and the people in Heaven ask God to let them free, and technically it wouldn't violate their free will since they're already in Hell.

Now yes, I know it's not an authoritative source and yes, I know that people are probably thinking that I shouldn't have mentioned where I got the hypothetical situation from. But that wasn't my point, my point was whether or not the idea of people being forgiven after they're in hell acutally violate any of Christianity's rules?

And please, I'm simply curious about people's thoughts on this idea, I'm just asking questions.

[Nicholas]

Do you mean "end of days" being the tribulation period?

I may have mixed up the terminology, but I meant when there are the people in hell and the people in heaven.

[Darth Executor]

I don't think it violates any rules. Ultimately, Jesus has the right to save whom he wishes. It's a dangerous gamble to make though as there is no hint that Jesus will actually do it...

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

... and if even if you cannot be saved by works alone that what he had done with his life must mean something.

Well, let us say that God answers this prayer! And he now is in heaven, only he is not actually completely obedient to God. Then the problem is, heaven is a place where God's will is always done without exception, so this friend has no corner where he can go off and indulge his favorite peccadillo, no shadow where he can make faces at old Biff any more (how did he get in here, anyway?), no secret place in his soul where he can think an unkind thought, even.

So for this man, heaven would be hell...

Blessings,
Lee

[NeilUnreal]

It's a profound mystery: if even one soul is lost forever, then the good means nothing, yet if even one soul is saved, then evil is defeated.

As the (no doubt apocryphal) starfish story goes:

A little girl is walking along the beach with her father, when she comes across a stranded starfish. She carefully picks it up and runs down to the surf and places the starfish back into the ocean.

Whe she comes back, her father asks "there must be hundreds of stranded starfish, what difference can you possibly make?"

"It made a difference to that one," she replied.

-Neil