Companion Thread to "Can Grace be Earned": Can God Have Sufficient Reason for Grace?

[Captain Ochre]

In an informal debate with Compatibilist Kenny, he appealed to the principle of sufficient reason to critique LFW. Chappie's recent thread is along these same lines, so a hat tip to him for his thinking on this topic.

Given the principle of sufficient reason, can God have sufficient reason for bestowing grace on one individual instead of another?

[GoBahnsen]

In an informal debate with Compatibilist Kenny, he appealed to the principle of sufficient reason to critique LFW. Chappie's recent thread is along these same lines, so a hat tip to him for his thinking on this topic.

Given the principle of sufficient reason, can God have sufficient reason for bestowing grace on one individual instead of another?

I suppose so, but who produced the reason in that person? In other words, like Paul said of himself...that God set him apart from his mother's womb. All that Paul had become was under God's gifting and guidance, and then at the appointed time, God calls Paul out of moralistic darkness into Gospel light. So in one sense I would answer yes, but be quick to add that it is God who has set it all up. It is God who has fashioned for Himself vessels of honour and vessels of wrath.

If you are looking for a reason that fallen sinners give God, by means of something they do or produce, then I think you are straying into the religions of the world and not the Gospel.

[Calvinist4Him]

I suppose so, but who produced the reason in that person? In other words, like Paul said of himself...that God set him apart from his mother's womb. All that Paul had become was under God's gifting and guidance, and then at the appointed time, God calls Paul out of moralistic darkness into Gospel light. So in one sense I would answer yes, but be quick to add that it is God who has set it all up. It is God who has fashioned for Himself vessels of honour and vessels of wrath.

If you are looking for a reason that fallen sinners give God, by means of something they do or produce, then I think you are straying into the religions of the world and not the Gospel.

Yes! Grace is what seperates Christianity from other religions. In Christianity we learn about a God who actively saves lost sinners, in other religions we find religious people attempting to save theirself, by meriting the favor of their god.

[Captain Ochre]

I suppose so, but who produced the reason in that person?

That would have to be God, I suppose ... but would God produce a suffiicent reason for someone to receive grace without knowing that he was producing sufficient reason for someone to receive grace? What was the reason for producing the reason?
IMO, your answer begs the question.
If God knowingly produces the reason for that person receiving grace, we have to look for God's sufficient reason for producing that reason according to the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR).

In other words, like Paul said of himself...that God set him apart from his mother's womb. All that Paul had become was under God's gifting and guidance, and then at the appointed time, God calls Paul out of moralistic darkness into Gospel light. So in one sense I would answer yes, but be quick to add that it is God who has set it all up. It is God who has fashioned for Himself vessels of honour and vessels of wrath.

If you are looking for a reason that fallen sinners give God, by means of something they do or produce, then I think you are straying into the religions of the world and not the Gospel.

It's all very well and good to insinuate that I'm a heretic (love ya, GB!), but it doesn't resolve the logical difficulty, AFAICT.

[GoBahnsen]

That would have to be God, I suppose ... but would God produce a suffiicent reason for someone to receive grace without knowing that he was producing sufficient reason for someone to receive grace? What was the reason for producing the reason?
IMO, your answer begs the question.
If God knowingly produces the reason for that person receiving grace, we have to look for God's sufficient reason for producing that reason according to the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR).



It's all very well and good to insinuate that I'm a heretic (love ya, GB!), but it doesn't resolve the logical difficulty, AFAICT.

What is the logic of a Divine Potter making for Himself vessels of mercy? What you seem to be saying is that for it to be logical to you, the Potter must endow the vessels with self determination, that...but for God's foreknowledge, these vessels could actually surprise their Creator.

I think the root difficulty starts with our understanding of just what the Divine Potter is up to. We argue about that. The one side saying God can be surprised, the other saying not so. The one side looking for the creature to make himself to differ, the other side seeing that it is God who decided what men would become.

And of course...left to themselves...we see what men become. I guess it could also boil down to whether grace can be resisted, when it is sent to accomplish a purpose. I think grace is often resisted, but not saving grace sent to the elect, THAT I believe is always effectual. As seen in the case of Saul of Tarsus and John the Baptist.

[GoBahnsen]

Yes! Grace is what seperates Christianity from other religions. In Christianity we learn about a God who actively saves lost sinners, in other religions we find religious people attempting to save theirself, by meriting the favor of their god.

Well said. People tend toward religion or irreligion and the Gospel offers a third way. Not a compromise between the two poles, but a different way to approach God and every area of life. The main truth of the Gospel is God's grace, I think.

[Calvinist4Him]

That would have to be God, I suppose ... but would God produce a suffiicent reason for someone to receive grace without knowing that he was producing sufficient reason for someone to receive grace?

The question doesn't make any sense...assuming God is all-knowing. Is grace "received", or is it bestowed/imparted/granted?

What was the reason for producing the reason?

That's just it, there wasn't a reason other than God's glory.

IMO, your answer begs the question.
If God knowingly produces the reason for that person receiving grace, we have to look for God's sufficient reason for producing that reason according to the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR).

Hmm...I don't think we're arguing for the position that person's receive grace, but that God grants His grace to specific person's for His glory, and passes by others.

Shall we reason God's sufficient reason? We should never subordinate God to human reason, we couldn't reason in the first place without Him. In other words, we are borrowing from God when we reason within ourselves. The logic we use to reason by trandscends ourselves and is grounded in the mind of a trandscendent God. IOW, God trandscends human reasoning, by that I mean reasoning which doesn't take into account the source of reasoning.

[Captain Ochre]

What is the logic of a Divine Potter making for Himself vessels of mercy? What you seem to be saying is that for it to be logical to you, the Potter must endow the vessels with self determination, that...but for God's foreknowledge, these vessels could actually surprise their Creator.

No, I'm saying that for one who accepts the PSR (Principle of Sufficient Reason) then we should expect God to have suffiicient reason for imparting grace. I don't buy the PSR, but Calvinist defender Kenny does, AFAICT.
You could just admit that is isn't logical to you, GB, but that you don't care since you place God's sovereignty above your ability to understand (albeit it's your very understanding of God's sovereignty that leads you to reject the alternative mode of thinking).
That would be an answer that doesn't fallaciously beg the question, anyway.

I think the root difficulty starts with our understanding of just what the Divine Potter is up to. We argue about that. The one side saying God can be surprised, the other saying not so. The one side looking for the creature to make himself to differ, the other side seeing that it is God who decided what men would become.

We don't even need to bring in the other side on this one. This is simply an exploration of how the PSR works in with the Calvinist view of divine grace.
The PSR would dictate that God requires sufficient reason for creating both the vessel of grace and the vessel intended for destruction.
That issue hasn't yet been addressed by you (and maybe you can't).

And of course...left to themselves...we see what men become. I guess it could also boil down to whether grace can be resisted, when it is sent to accomplish a purpose. I think grace is often resisted, but not saving grace sent to the elect, THAT I believe is always effectual. As seen in the case of Saul of Tarsus and John the Baptist.

No, it doesn't boil down to whether or not grace can be resisted. It's simply an issue of how the PSR relates to God's bestowal of grace.

One could reject the PSR, but the one who rejects the PSR ought not employ it against the idea of LFW.

[betzerg]

Yes! Grace is what seperates Christianity from other religions. In Christianity we learn about a God who actively saves lost sinners, in other religions we find religious people attempting to save theirself, by meriting the favor of their god.

And what "other" religion would that be. I'm not really aware of any religion that doesn't acknowledge that it is the mercies of G-d that He shows favor to man. Judiasm teaches that it IS G-d's mercies that gave the nation of Israel HIS Torah....his instructions...on how to live.

He did this because he loved Israel and because Israel responded on Mt. Sinai with "we will do all that you say"...a covenantal agreement.

But it is possible to catch the attention of HaShem by our devoution to HIm..like MOses who (Ge 6:8) found GRACE in the eyes of the L-rd because of his righteousness.

And Moses (Ex 33:12) and in Ex 33:13 Moses goes on to say "show me now your way, that I may know you, THAT i may found grace in thy sight."

Synergy.

G-d reveals...we accept...G-d reveals more.

With sinners it's like G-d reveals...thy reject...G-d withdrawals.

Nothing is arbitrary with G-d. He has designed the world with order, reasonableness and purpose. To say G-d acts "purpose-Less-ly" is to denounce HIS position as G-d.

shalom,

BETZER

[Captain Ochre]

Just a caution not to veer too far off topic, please.

[Calvinist4Him]

And what "other" religion would that be.

I said religion with an "S" which is the plural form of the word meaning more than one religion.

I'm not really aware of any religion that doesn't acknowledge that it is the mercies of G-d that He shows favor to man. Judiasm teaches that it IS G-d's mercies that gave the nation of Israel HIS Torah....his instructions...on how to live.

According to Judiasm, what must I DO, to be saved? If I keep the commands of the Law, will I be saved?

He did this because he loved Israel and because Israel responded on Mt. Sinai with "we will do all that you say"...a covenantal agreement.

But it is possible to catch the attention of HaShem by our devoution to HIm..like MOses who (Ge 6:8) found GRACE in the eyes of the L-rd because of his righteousness.

And Moses (Ex 33:12) and in Ex 33:13 Moses goes on to say "show me now your way, that I may know you, THAT i may found grace in thy sight."

Synergy.

Synergism involves the "work" of humans in such a way that God and man are cooperating with one another.

G-d reveals...we accept...G-d reveals more.

With sinners it's like G-d reveals...thy reject...G-d withdrawals.

Nothing is arbitrary with G-d. He has designed the world with order, reasonableness and purpose. To say G-d acts "purpose-Less-ly" is to denounce HIS position as G-d.

Your presupposition is that mankind is worthy of God's favor to begin with. From such a presupposition comes statements like "Nothing is arbitrary with G-d" when responding to sovereign gracers like me.

[Captain Ochre]

Just another caution not to veer too far off-topic, please.

There is a "new thread" button available if folks want to pursue these issues not related to the manner in which the PSR works with election.
Feel free to draw others to that thread from this one with a URL, but please respect the intended subject matter of the thread.

[betzerg]

I said religion with an "S" which is the plural form of the word meaning more than one religion.

so what religions are you refering to?

According to Judiasm, what must I DO, to be saved? If I keep the commands of the Law, will I be saved?

if YOU don't keep the commandments of jesus...will you be saved? If you murder, steal, commit adultery...will you still make it to "heaven"???

Synergism involves the "work" of humans in such a way that God and man are cooperating with one another.

EXACTLY...your point?

Your presupposition is that mankind is worthy of God's favor to begin with. From such a presupposition comes statements like "Nothing is arbitrary with G-d" when responding to sovereign gracers like me.

Who is ever worthy of G-d's favor? Yet, mankind is G-d creation, His desire is to be known and loved by His creation...why would He be arbitrary...if he truly wishes men to know Him they MUST have free will.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Calvinist4Him]

No, I'm saying that for one who accepts the PSR (Principle of Sufficient Reason) then we should expect God to have suffiicient reason for imparting grace. I don't buy the PSR, but Calvinist defender Kenny does, AFAICT.

I've never even heard of PSR, but I don't buy it either, so you're in agreement on that point with compatibilist Calvinist defender Calvinist4Him.

You could just admit that is isn't logical to you, GB, but that you don't care since you place God's sovereignty above your ability to understand (albeit it's your very understanding of God's sovereignty that leads you to reject the alternative mode of thinking). That would be an answer that doesn't fallaciously beg the question, anyway.

I don't have a problem with admitting that I do not understand God's sovereign choices, and that just because they do not seem logical to me, that does not mean they're fallacious, I mean, who knows the mind of God?

We don't even need to bring in the other side on this one. This is simply an exploration of how the PSR works in with the Calvinist view of divine grace. The PSR would dictate that God requires sufficient reason for creating both the vessel of grace and the vessel intended for destruction. That issue hasn't yet been addressed by you (and maybe you can't).

No, it doesn't boil down to whether or not grace can be resisted. It's simply an issue of how the PSR relates to God's bestowal of grace.

One could reject the PSR, but the one who rejects the PSR ought not employ it against the idea of LFW.

I would be interested in reading Kenny's response, in reading a defense of PSR that can maintain sovereign grace...although I have an idea where it might go...

[Sheepdog]

I don't have a problem with admitting that I do not understand God's sovereign choices, and that just because they do not seem logical to me, that does not mean they're fallacious, I mean, who knows the mind of God?

i won't speak for the Capt., though i think he would think along the same lines: this is something i have no problem making a concession for, with the caveat that we should not us such thinking to undermine what Scripture has said about God's sovereign choices.