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Thread: Immutability of God.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Immutability of God.

    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber Yttrium's Avatar
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    Why would one assume that God never created anything before this universe? We might just be the current stage of an endless sequence of creation.
    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

  3. Amen 37818, Carrikature, Franktalk, jo1952 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.

    There are many possible beginnings in God's Creation. This only refers one beginning. Ultimately all of existence may be without a beginning.

    Change can a part of God's Creation and not God.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    If we are assuming that time is one of the things which was created ex nihilo, then it is not the case that "after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything." Of course, that opens up the question, "How could God have created something which was literally never non-existent?" Still, if we can ignore this further problem for the sake of the question in the OP, then there was literally never a time when God was not a Creator, and therefore no mutation.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yttrium View Post
    Why would one assume that God never created anything before this universe? We might just be the current stage of an endless sequence of creation.
    Then there would be no first creation. Then this God would have to be both mutable and immutable. Why would he not then be both? Or only be a mutable deity.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    If we are assuming that time is one of the things which was created ex nihilo, then it is not the case that "after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything." Of course, that opens up the question, "How could God have created something which was literally never non-existent?" Still, if we can ignore this further problem for the sake of the question in the OP, then there was literally never a time when God was not a Creator, and therefore no mutation.
    A creation takes the act of a creator. An action is a type of change/mutability.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    I think people are referring more to God's moral character and abilities never changing.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  9. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I think people are referring more to God's moral character and abilities never changing.
    Yes. If God were immutable in the sense 37818 means, then he would be unable to act or do anything. He would just be some eternal statue.

  11. Amen Christianbookworm, Chrawnus, Adrift amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I think people are referring more to God's moral character and abilities never changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes. If God were immutable in the sense 37818 means, then he would be unable to act or do anything. He would just be some eternal statue.
    There actually are quite a number of people who assert that God is timeless and immutable in exactly that sense. That is, in fact, the understanding of Classical Theology.

    William Lane Craig departs from this view by asserting that God was timeless until the creation of Time, at which point God entered time and became a tensed being. Personally, I feel that this is completely incoherent, but it is the position which Craig has espoused.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I think people are referring more to God's moral character and abilities never changing.
    My experience is more often that people retreat to this view once they feel the broader version of immutability is no longer tenable.
    I'm not here anymore.

  14. Amen James Cusick, Pentecost amen'd this post.

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