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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Salvation for non-Catholic Christians

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    Is there any official teaching as to the extent of the ignorance necessary for, say, a Protestant? That's a bad way to phrase the question, but I can't think of any other way.
    If you had to guess at the answer, what would you say?
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      If you had to guess at the answer, what would you say?
      I'm not sure...it seems to be somewhat vague. I'm honestly not sure what the answer might be.

      Edit: not sure, is what I meant to say.
      Last edited by Zymologist; 03-13-2015, 10:29 PM.
      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        I'm not sure...it seems to be somewhat vague. I'm honestly not sure what the answer might be.

        Edit: not sure, is what I meant to say.
        If you have good reason to suspect that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, but you refrain from researching further because you're afraid you might have to convert, that's culpable ignorance.

        On the other hand, sometimes mistaken impressions are entirely understandable. If you arrive at a mistaken impression of what the Church is and are never credibly presented with an invitation to look deeper, then your ignorance would not be culpable.

        Just seeing the Catechism on the shelf in a bookstore isn't enough for St. Peter to say at the pearly gates, "ha, you could've learned about Catholicism, but you didn't, so off to Hell you go!" As I understand it, you have to have some basic comprehension of an idea before you can be culpable for accepting or rejecting it.
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          You mean riposte?
          No.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #35
            Catholic Digest. May 1994. Fr. Ken Ryan … page 124

            < the lead question for the month of May--->

            “Your June 1993 issue had a most interesting question regarding the New Covenant. Your answer said that people come under the New Covenant by joining the Catholic Church and taking part in the Catholic Mass, but said nothing about there being any other ways of entering the New Covenant or about limiting salvation to those under the New Covenant. Are there (in Catholic thought) any other ways of salvation, and if there are, doesn’t that fact make the Catholic New Covenant (joining the Catholic church and attending Mass) unnecessary?” Bob.

            The Answer – By Fr. Ken Ryan

            “Not in Catholic theology. God is fair to everyone so He offers His salvation to everyone. The invitation is issued through the New Covenant, and human acceptance of the invitation is properly expressed by membership in the Catholic Church And participation in Christ’s sacrifice of Himself in the Mass. The New Covenant, in its Catholic meaning, is the ordinary way of salvation (getting to heaven).

            God’s expressed command is that everyone belong to the Catholic Church He founded. “He who hears Me” was spoken to the 70 disciples whom He had organized to speak for Him in places He did not personally visit.

            The invitation to membership in the New Covenant is for all people in general, but the acceptance has to be by the individual. One certainly can’t decline an invitation he or she has never heard of. Accordingly, the Catholic Church does not deny the possibility of salvation except to those who have heard the invitation, understood its meaning, and nevertheless rejected it. Those who have never heard it, never understood it, or never made any deliberate rejection of the invitation can still be saved in some extraordinary way., some way other than joining the Catholic Church and participating in the Mass. All these possible ways can be summarized by saying that all persons who sincerely try to have a properly informed conscience and then follow that conscience in their moral actions can be saved by this extraordinary way God offers to all.

            New Covenant as a term is much more prevalent in non-Catholic popular literature than it is in Catholic writings, and has various meanings. But it was Christ Himself who identified it with the Mass which non-Catholics have rejected.

            “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” was spoken at the Last Supper (the first Mass).
            So, according to Catholic thought the New Covenant is the ordinary way to heaven, commanded for our use by Christ, which nevertheless allows salvation by the extraordinary action of God.


            :)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              If you have good reason to suspect that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, but you refrain from researching further because you're afraid you might have to convert, that's culpable ignorance.

              On the other hand, sometimes mistaken impressions are entirely understandable. If you arrive at a mistaken impression of what the Church is and are never credibly presented with an invitation to look deeper, then your ignorance would not be culpable.

              Just seeing the Catechism on the shelf in a bookstore isn't enough for St. Peter to say at the pearly gates, "ha, you could've learned about Catholicism, but you didn't, so off to Hell you go!" As I understand it, you have to have some basic comprehension of an idea before you can be culpable for accepting or rejecting it.
              This is some of your better work, steak flipper!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                No.
                Edited by a Moderator

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                ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
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                Last edited by Cow Poke; 03-14-2015, 05:59 PM.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  Thanks. This seems to largely reinforce the blog post in the OP. Am I missing something?
                  Welcome. Other than being a lot wordier, said the same thing. Like many Protestants don't think Catholics are saved, many Catholics think the same in reverse.
                  "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                  "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                    If you have good reason to suspect that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, but you refrain from researching further because you're afraid you might have to convert, that's culpable ignorance.

                    On the other hand, sometimes mistaken impressions are entirely understandable. If you arrive at a mistaken impression of what the Church is and are never credibly presented with an invitation to look deeper, then your ignorance would not be culpable.

                    Just seeing the Catechism on the shelf in a bookstore isn't enough for St. Peter to say at the pearly gates, "ha, you could've learned about Catholicism, but you didn't, so off to Hell you go!" As I understand it, you have to have some basic comprehension of an idea before you can be culpable for accepting or rejecting it.
                    So if a Protestant were to examine Catholic doctrine but conclude that it doesn't coincide with how he understands Scripture, I'm taking it that this would make him culpable and therefore unsaved?
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      So if a Protestant were to examine Catholic doctrine but conclude that it doesn't coincide with how he understands Scripture, I'm taking it that this would make him culpable and therefore unsaved?
                      Very similar to what OC and NRAJeff used to tell us about Mormonism.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Very similar to what OC and NRAJeff used to tell us about Mormonism.
                        It's also not far off from the theological paradigm that justifies forced conversions: you've been presented with our arguments for, say, Islam, and if you're not convinced, then you deserve death for rejecting God's revelation (nevermind the lack of careful and convincing presentation of the arguments)
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          It's also not far off from the theological paradigm that justifies forced conversions: you've been presented with our arguments for, say, Islam, and if you're not convinced, then you deserve death for rejecting God's revelation (nevermind the lack of careful and convincing presentation of the arguments)
                          Except, of course, that most religions OTHER than Islam allow you time to study, think, pray, consider, reason..... My impression is that Islam, particularly in the "extremist" version, is pretty much a "decide here and now!" kind of thing.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Except, of course, that most religions OTHER than Islam allow you time to study, think, pray, consider, reason..... My impression is that Islam, particularly in the "extremist" version, is pretty much a "decide here and now!" kind of thing.
                            And most other religions don't proscribe the death penalty for apostasy, leaving that sort of thing up to God.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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