Understanding what it means to be not under the law

[themuzicman]

What exactly do you mean ? Could you include a relevant example of how this works out.

Especially as what you have said could be understood as meaning something like "Not under the law in regards to adultery".

But hopefully this is not what you are referring too (I'm sure my wife would get annoyed with me if I understood it this way).

Jason

If you read Hebrews, you find that Christ is of a new priestly order, which means a new law. The commandment of the New Covenant is found in 1 John 3:23. I should think your wife would throw that in your face, should you try to justify adultery.

Furthermore, Paul clearly states that just because we are no longer under the LAW doesn't mean we should go sinning! 1 Cor 6:12 says that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. The point is that while we aren't under the law any longer, (and this is where Paul aligns nicely with James), we ought to live as slaves to righteousness rather than as slaves to sin!

Thus, the Old Covenant was fulfilled by CHrist, and the requirements of the law fulfilled in us through Christ (Rom 8:2-4), and we are under the New Covenant with the New Covenant Commands: Believe in God, Love one another.

Michael

[themuzicman]

I would like to think that a Christian "saved by Grace" and "not under the law" would be quickly jailed after committing a murder. lol

Christians in China quickly wind up in labor camps for publically worshipping God, too. What's your point?

Michael

[smaller]

Christians in China quickly wind up in labor camps for publically worshipping God, too. What's your point?

Michael

Christians who think themselves "not under the law" often find themselves in jail for breaking same.

[themuzicman]

Christians who think themselves "not under the law" often find themselves in jail for breaking same.

So, US law IS GOD'S LAW?

[!Fluffy!]

Christians who think themselves "not under the law" often find themselves in jail for breaking same.

There are several silly assumptions at work here, mainly that an actual (born-again) new creature in Christ would, no longer being "under the law", have no compunction about going around murdering and pillaging.

Not.

In fact a spiritual law goes into effect whereby the natural man, being slain, drowned, overcome - no longer has authority over the creature in question, and is now subservient to the mind and will of Christ in-dwelling. Sanctification then proceeds towards perfection to the finishing of Christ's work, and is a life long process.

The new creature in Christ is no longer merely under the Law, but is now under Christ, a Christ who embodies and fulfills the law - and overreaches, supersedes, overshadows the law with a perfected Godly conscience and sensitivity.

To imagine that such a new creature is capable of random acts of cruelty is to misunderstand the nature of rebirth in Christ.

No, we are no longer "under the law". We are under obedience to Christ, whose standard is waaaay far beyond the law.

[smaller]

There are several silly assumptions at work here, mainly that an actual (born-again) new creature in Christ would, no longer being "under the law", have no compunction about going around murdering and pillaging.

Not.

In fact a spiritual law goes into effect whereby the natural man, being slain, drowned, overcome - no longer has authority over the creature in question, and is now subservient to the mind and will of Christ in-dwelling. Sanctification then proceeds towards perfection to the finishing of Christ's work, and is a life long process.

The new creature in Christ is no longer merely under the Law, but is now under Christ, a Christ who embodies and fulfills the law - and overreaches, supersedes, overshadows the law with a perfected Godly conscience and sensitivity.

To imagine that such a new creature is capable of random acts of cruelty is to misunderstand the nature of rebirth in Christ.

No, we are no longer "under the law". We are under obedience to Christ, whose standard is waaaay far beyond the law.

The fact of the matter will remain. The flesh has sin indwelling and that is the lawlessness. The Law is written against the lawlessness and FOR the children of God.

Every time The Law is picked up by the "flesh" sin indwelling is aroused and even empowered SHOWING THE CONTINUAL VALIDITY of The Law.

Christians KNOW that they cannot follow The Law BECAUSE OF THIS FACT of sin indwelling, so they use various ways to discredit The Law. The Law is God's Word. The Law will not be going away anytime soon.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Christians KNOW that they cannot follow The Law BECAUSE OF THIS FACT of sin indwelling, so they use various ways to discredit The Law. The Law is God's Word. The Law will not be going away anytime soon.

(Mat 8:4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

I guess I'll see you at the temple, then.

[smaller]

(Mat 8:4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

I guess I'll see you at the temple, then.

And I'd guess you didn't get it then.

[!Fluffy!]

There are several silly assumptions at work here, mainly that an actual (born-again) new creature in Christ would, no longer being "under the law", have no compunction about going around murdering and pillaging.

Not.

In fact a spiritual law goes into effect whereby the natural man, being slain, drowned, overcome - no longer has authority over the creature in question, and is now subservient to the mind and will of Christ in-dwelling. Sanctification then proceeds towards perfection to the finishing of Christ's work, and is a life long process.

The new creature in Christ is no longer merely under the Law, but is now under Christ, a Christ who embodies and fulfills the law - and overreaches, supersedes, overshadows the law with a perfected Godly conscience and sensitivity.

To imagine that such a new creature is capable of random acts of cruelty is to misunderstand the nature of rebirth in Christ.

No, we are no longer "under the law". We are under obedience to Christ, whose standard is waaaay far beyond the law.

The fact of the matter will remain. The flesh has sin indwelling and that is the lawlessness. The Law is written against the lawlessness and FOR the children of God.

Every time The Law is picked up by the "flesh" sin indwelling is aroused and even empowered SHOWING THE CONTINUAL VALIDITY of The Law.

Christians KNOW that they cannot follow The Law BECAUSE OF THIS FACT of sin indwelling, so they use various ways to discredit The Law. The Law is God's Word. The Law will not be going away anytime soon.

I'd guess YOU didn't get it then.

Who exactly is trying to "discredit The Law"? How?
Do you elevate the power of The Law above the power of The Christ indwelling? (as described in my post, which you may want to read this time).

And I'm sorry, but this statement is nonsense to me:

Every time The Law is picked up by the "flesh"..

[smaller]

I'd guess YOU didn't get it then.

Who exactly is trying to "discredit The Law"? How?

Christians claim that they are not "under" the law. I don't disagree with that claim.

The observation being put in play here is that there are things "in people" that are for a fact under "the law." The Law reveals lawlessness IN people.

Do you elevate the power of The Law above the power of The Christ indwelling?

I do not find The Law to be at odds with Christ. Not at all. The Law is His Word as well. It was not delivered without "reasons."

The Law is the dividing line between God's children and the children of the devil.

[7thangel]

There is a false teaching going around that to be not under the law means merely to be not under its condemnation.

But it doesn't: it means what it says: to be not under the law (itself).


When one comes to Christ, he is a new creature that has never existed before: the "new man". It is this new man who is not under the law, and to whom therefore the law does not apply to.

Anyone who sins is under the law, since sin is trangression of the law.


[blockquote] 1 John 3:6-9
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/blockquote]

If you have really received Christ, then you know that the Christ you receive will take away your sins; for who abideth in him sinneth not. If you confess you still sin, then you still do not know Christ.

[FlimFlamboyant]

If you confess you still sin, then you still do not know Christ.

(1Jo 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[7thangel]

(1Jo 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is for those who have not received Christ "yet." If one had received Christ, he will take away our sin, and we will not sin anymore.

But actually, John's point on that verse is that if one has no sin, then how could Christ take away sin and save us? It is sin that lead us to destruction, and thus it is sin that Christ came to destroy. If anyone who are saved has no sin, then what is the cross of Christ for? He is supposed to be the lamb to take away sin, and if man have no sin, what is the lamb used for?

But if one still sin after receiving Christ, then he received a devil in himself, and not the true Christ that free us from sin. If you know what I mean.


.

[jason]

If you read Hebrews, you find that Christ is of a new priestly order, which means a new law. The commandment of the New Covenant is found in 1 John 3:23. I should think your wife would throw that in your face, should you try to justify adultery.

Furthermore, Paul clearly states that just because we are no longer under the LAW doesn't mean we should go sinning! 1 Cor 6:12 says that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. The point is that while we aren't under the law any longer, (and this is where Paul aligns nicely with James), we ought to live as slaves to righteousness rather than as slaves to sin!

Thus, the Old Covenant was fulfilled by CHrist, and the requirements of the law fulfilled in us through Christ (Rom 8:2-4), and we are under the New Covenant with the New Covenant Commands: Believe in God, Love one another.

Michael

Thank's for that. I realise this is true (though the reminder is always good), it is just that some "not under law" types I have seen around use such a claim as a justification for licentiousness.

Jason

[James Peter]

There is no contradiction between Matthew and Paul or between Romans and Galatians or any of Scripture.

Sadly thats a naive view that the entire of contemporary scholarship would view with scorn. Well, perhaps 'contradiction' is on the harsh side but different writers certainly had different views on the same issues. Paul or John's Christology was very different to the author of the Pastorals...

When you say Paul wasn't teaching against Judaism but Christians in Galatians you completely negate the validity of all Pauline theology.

No. I completely negate the validity of your interpretation of Paul's theology. Thats a completely different thing. I'll happily go into the evidence that Paul was speaking against members of the Jerusalem Church (those who preached circumcision and law observance) if you want and are prepared to deal with the evidence... but the arguments require some competence and scholarship and not to just naively assert that your view is right...

It was the misuse and misapplication of the law as mediator that he addresses consistently in all of his works. But not only Judaism but all pagan systems such as Rome for they posit the same premise - salvation was in Caesar and the State and mediatorial institutions. There is no law or institution that mediates for man, it is by Christ alone. Walking by the Spirit is not some emotional laden feely weely thing that Christians are supposed to do, walking blindly in ignorance being perpetual slaves of other men, but in Liberty, it is by the spirit of God's word, His Law. Surely you've read the difference between the spirit of the Law and the letter of it?

Some of this is true, some of it isn't. None of it is what Paul is driving at in the passages in question however. And 'word of God' isn't the law, the NT or the OT. It refers to only two things in the entire NT: (1) The Divine Logos which became flesh, Christ Himself and (2) the message of God, that is, the gospel. Neither is in any way a written text that we have access too.

This really isn't that hard to understand, it takes effort to make it into antinomianism, which comes from asserting a humanism. You'll find that everyone that asserts a juridical antinomianism also asserts a soteriological one called Arminianism.

Ahh, so you're a Calvinist. It all makes sense now. What I'm suggesting isn't antinomianism (although Paul comes close to that stance when he says that the Law was given by angels and not by God...). The Law is presented by Paul as a cosmic force as much as as a legal code. That cosmic force was dispowered at the Cross. Sure in Romans Paul softens his stance but thats because he is dealing with different issues - you need to stop reading Galatians in terms of Romans. The key to understanding Paul is to understand the context he was writing in.

If one rejects God as their lawgiver then one necesssarily reject Him as their Judge because He judges man in terms of His law, which necessarily rejects Him as their King, which necessarily denies His grace outside of which there is no salvation. Anti-nomianism is emphatically anti-Christian.

No, it is to accept God as my Judge and as my Advocate. To place the Living Word above the written 'word'. To understand his grace and the true achievement of the Cross and to embrace the apocalyptic world view that Paul had. To really understand what 'new creation' means - that the entire reality has been altered and is being altered still.

You can preach Sinai, I'll preach the promise that God gave to Abraham...the 'law' within the 'Law'....