I was watching the History Channle and was really bothered by something I heard.

[Richbee]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history...... Ock

I would rank your English grammer as silly.

Could you try again? Are you trying to say that the support of France against Great Britain in our Revolutionary War changed all of history, and ranks as the "most important event"? Perhaps it was the person:Lafayette?

[learning]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...! These ideas transformed Western political thinking...!

hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'

[Snarf]

Fair point. Since you are Christian you have a different view of Jesus than me. I see him as a Jewish reformer and anti-Roman martyr (assuming he existeed = o|). Obviously you have a different view of him. So were the Carths into crucifixion? I wonder how they would have delat with Jesus???

A couple of differences-Carthage was not primarily a land-occupying power. The Carthaginian Emipire was more one of trade dominance, in many ways it was similar to the British Empire; it dominated foreign governments, and used mercenaries in war.

The Carthaginians had cricufixion long before the Romans-probably the Romans got it from them. Enemies of the state, and cowardly and unsuccessful generals were crucified (probably not common thieves).

[learning]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...! These ideas transformed Western political thinking...!

Something just didn't ring right with this. Here's a blurb about a book about the Magna Charter
'The Magna Charter' by James Dougherty
The principle that citizens have inalienable rights and that even kings are obligated to obey the law is magnificiently expressed in the Magne Charter, signed by King John on June 15, 1215. '

[Barry Desborough]

I know that we are the society that gives more interms of charity by the citizens than any other country.

Sincerely,

Ock~

Charity by citizen in proportion to official aid and welfare, possibly.

I do not have specific information on his sources, but according to Peter Singer in 'One World'; from UN 2000 figures, United States official foreign aid was 0.1% of GNP, bottom of the table of developed nations. Adding private donations brings it to 0.14% - still bottom. Only Denmark, The Netherlands and Norway meet or exceed the long-standing UN target of 0.7%.

According to the same book, surveys reveal that Americans commonly believe 10% to 20% of the federal budget is spent on foreign aid, and want it cut to between 5% and 10%. That 'cut' would actually increase it by 50 to 100 - fold.

[MisseLaneius]

hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'

And yet, for all that Europe were predominantly Christian throughout many hundreds of years, the different governments still managed to stop any kind of liberty, equality (and to a certain extent) fraternity. The divine right of kings? The feudal system?

It was the French Revolution that put these concepts on a world stage. A stage which the church had certainly not championed - the church's interests lay in being friends with the rich and powerful. What the French Revolution did was unlock the belief that people should have a say in their future. This is the bedrock of democracy, a more widely held belief (IMO) than any single religion.

[Nicholas]

Before we entered the war, the UK was losing the war. They were victims of the Blitz Krieg. They would have enventualy been invaded by the Germans. The United States turned the tide of that war. Americ's resources, man power, engineering, coupled with the UK's millitary and engineering was more than the Germans could take on. Admittedly, the fight with the Russians put a great strain on Germany's resources. With the combined efforts of all the countries we beat Hitler. I would say that the one country in the equation is the only one that cannot be done with out. The United States is that country.

I would go further in pointing out that the US is the first country to ever attempt to build a bi-racial society (Stephen Ambrose/ To America). I think that the US makes enough food to feed every person on the planet a 3000 calorie a day diet. I could be wrong about that. I know that we are the society that gives more interms of charity by the citizens than any other country.

Sincerely,

Ock~

I'm surprised I never responded to this, but I guess now is better than never.

The problem is that if the American Revolution never happened, there would likely be no World War Two, or World War One for that matter. This is because of what is known as the Butterfly Effect. For example, in a world without the American Revolution people who would have died don't, certain people might not be born. You have a sort of ripple effect. There is no reason to expect that history would take the same path. Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt would never have been born.

[Abykale]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...!

You have got to be kidding. The French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution, which itself drew on the ideas of European philosophers. Not to say that the French Revolution had no effect in spreading these ideals, but it was neither the first nor the only event to do so.

(At least, that's what I learned in my history classes here in America . . . )

[Catholicity]

Oh...yes the French Revolution.....Well...quite frankly social scientists, look at the French revolution and point to it for its spark of imperialism in all reality, their is a certain aspect, to which the quote you refer to happens to be true. Were it not for imperialism, the Germans wouldn't have become a competitive nation with the Dutch and the English. For it was that Competition which sparked WWI, the Great Depression, Followed by WWII, which at its end Sparked the State of Israe. And to Elaborate, England drew lines on the Nations it Conquered, in Africa and the Middle East Sparking wars between the Tribes and a desire for the fundamentalists of those Nations to Terrorize the "English and all its Allies" Source "The Western Tradition"

[Rushing Jaws]

You mean world war two? Just so you know, not everybody benefitted from Germany losing WW2. Personally, I'd rather speak german than speak communist.

## Pity the British kept out of it; they might actually have been some use.

Oh, wait...

As everyone knows, the Land of the Free Did it all. Alone. Including taking in ex-Nazis...

That's the kind of self-magnifying & self-adoring US dreck that really gets people's backs up outside the US. It doesn't win friends, & it does alienate people. Which is a pity, because inside the US is a decent nation struggling to get out.

[Rushing Jaws]

hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'

## In the same sense as Hungary was liberated in 1956 from the the deviationist Imre Nagy & his lickspittle lackeys ?

Where is this much-touted freedom ? I think we should be told

[Cybelle Hawke]

## [FONT=Georgia][SIZE=2][COLOR=darkred
Oh, wait...

As everyone knows, the Land of the Free Did it all. Alone. Including taking in ex-Nazis...

That's the kind of self-magnifying & self-adoring US dreck that really gets people's backs up outside the US. It doesn't win friends, & it does alienate people. Which is a pity, because inside the US is a decent nation struggling to get out.

Agreed.

Personally I got REALLY annoyed by the OP of the author of this thread.

Moreover, there is a little event called Pearl Harbour..... if the USA wanted to free the world they could have stepped in before right? And another big moreover, the jews were being prosecuted and slaughtered by Nazi Germany... so if morals were the motive here, the great USA should have stepped in right on the moment Hitler enter Poland!

Thank you for letting me vent!

[Cybelle Hawke]

oh yeah and a big event in (the far) western history to me..... is that a lot, really a lot of the Indian race and culture has been whiped off the map (from the map that today is called the USA...)

[Hannah]

Calm down sis.... don´t let this silly thread upset you.

Let us be grateful what the USA did and is doing.

As to WOII, they saved a lot of lives - and sacrificed them as well - together with the British, Canadians, Polish and Brazilian soldiers (just to mention a few) and they could not have done so much if it were not for the French, Belgian and Dutch resistance helping them.

When it comes to handing out medals.... the only one that really counts is G_d´s right?

Love ya... (could have phoned to say this but I need to post to get my avatar....)

[shunyadragon]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock

Actually, many historians consider this one of the primary hallmarks of recent history, because it fractured and weakened the royal houses of Europe, signaling the beginning of the end of the rule of kings and czars. I would pick several hallmark's of history, not just one.