Originally posted by Mountain Man
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"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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"Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".
To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.
If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post"Collectivist view of property" is the textbook definition of communism.
No.
But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership,"
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.
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Originally posted by Paprika View Post
No.
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.
And, yes what you're promoting is communism. You can laugh and smirk and get as snarky as you want, but that's where your arguments ultimately lead.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNot only did I represent you correctly, but I quoted you word for word in order to ensure I represented you correctly.
And, yes what you're promoting is communism.
No. You really are hung up on communism, aren't you?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post"Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".
To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.
If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Paprika View Post
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI don't think anyone can argue that Levitical or Deuteronomical commands were to be taken as voluntary.
Israel got in trouble more than a few times for failing to adhere to YHWH's commands,
if memory serves,
and the State did have power of enforcement.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostWhat do you see as the difference? (between the "selfish modern" notion and the other notion(s) of individualistic ownership)
It's a long history, involving areas such as ethics, philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology, and requires the deconstruction of much of what is integral to many common types of worldviews, including my own and I am woefully underequipped to expound on it. However, if you insist, I'll do my best (we start with Homer).
On another note, I would not now prefer to use the word 'selfish' because of the pejorative it connotes. 'Self-centered' would be slightly better but I know of no good way to convey in a concise manner how radically individualistic the notions and the worldview(s) they spring from are.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostA lie: you quoted entirely out of context.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sam View PostHow do you define debt forgiveness if not a redistribution of wealth? How does one define the mandate to leave portions of a harvest for the poor, if this doesn't constitute a redistribution of wealth?
Sorry, Sam, but you simply can't use scripture to justify modern liberal notions of "wealth redistribution", no matter how much you wish you could.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI've noticed that you're awefully quick to falsely accuse people of lying when you find yourself backed into a corner.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostStop desperately projecting, idiot. When you make an obvious mistake admit it and move one: you twisted my claim that the Jews would not comprehend 'such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership, and represented me as claiming that Jews would not be able to comprehend any individualist sense of ownership.
Here, I'll just your own words speak against you:
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt justifies a reexamination of modern concepts of 'ownership' - which tends to be individualistic rather than communalistic.Originally posted by Paprika View PostAn an ancient collectivistic Jew might just find it hard to understand how people could ever embrace such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership.
Sorry, kiddo, but ancient Israel did not have a "communalistic" view of ownership, nor would they be baffled by what you, in a fit question begging, call "selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership". Otherwise, those in ancient Israel who owned the means for food production would not have needed a law to exhort them to leave gleanings for the poor at the edges of their field because in a communalistic society, the poor would have been able to boldly walk into the middle of field and pick grain right next to the property owner. I will also reiterate that in the system established by Old Testament law, if the poor wanted to eat then they were expected to work for their meal.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou accuse me of lying, and then claim I'm projecting when I call you on it. Son, you're all kinds of confused...Here, I'll just your own words speak against you:
Sorry, kiddo, but ancient Israel did not have a "communalistic" view of ownership, nor would they be baffled by what you, in a fit question begging, call "selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership". Otherwise, those in ancient Israel who owned the means for food production would not have needed a law to exhort them to leave gleanings for the poor at the edges of their field because in a communalistic society, the poor would have been able to boldly walk into the middle of field and pick grain right next to the property owner.
I will also reiterate that in the system established by Old Testament law, if the poor wanted to eat then they were expected to work for their meal.
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Paprika, at this point, please stop posting in my thread. I only ask this because you are not contributing anything to the topic, and seem to be interested in only in picking fights.
If you wish to return to the topic, you can remain. Same goes for everyone else (Mountain Man). I don't mind the topic wandering around a bit, but how we got from minimum wage to Jewish communism is a real mystery, and even that has just devolved into an "I said/you said" playground fight.
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