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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    "Collectivist view of property" is the textbook definition of communism.

    But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership," but now you say there was space in their worldview for the concept of "individual ownership".

    The bottom line, of course, is that nowhere in scripture is it commanded or implied that we are to "redistribute" a person's wealth against their will.
    How do you define debt forgiveness if not a redistribution of wealth? How does one define the mandate to leave portions of a harvest for the poor, if this doesn't constitute a redistribution of wealth?
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • "Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".

      To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.

      If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        "Collectivist view of property" is the textbook definition of communism.

        No.

        But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership,"

        I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.

        Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paprika View Post

          No.



          I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.

          Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.
          Not only did I represent you correctly, but I quoted you word for word in order to ensure I represented you correctly.

          And, yes what you're promoting is communism. You can laugh and smirk and get as snarky as you want, but that's where your arguments ultimately lead.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Not only did I represent you correctly, but I quoted you word for word in order to ensure I represented you correctly.
            A lie: you quoted entirely out of context.

            And, yes what you're promoting is communism.

            No. You really are hung up on communism, aren't you?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              "Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".

              To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.

              If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own.
              I don't think anyone can argue that Levitical or Deuteronomical commands were to be taken as voluntary. Israel got in trouble more than a few times for failing to adhere to YHWH's commands, if memory serves, and the State did have power of enforcement.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Paprika View Post

                I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
                What do you see as the difference? (between the "selfish modern" notion and the other notion(s) of individualistic ownership)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  I don't think anyone can argue that Levitical or Deuteronomical commands were to be taken as voluntary.
                  Sam, this was part of the covenant relationship between God and His people.

                  Israel got in trouble more than a few times for failing to adhere to YHWH's commands,
                  Yes, when they - as a nation - did not keep up their part of the covenant, there were certainly consequences. One of the biggest was not having the Blessing of God that was His part of the covenant.

                  if memory serves,
                  I'd rather rely on scripture.

                  and the State did have power of enforcement.
                  Um.... "the State"? Look how hard you're having to work to force this to be on any kind of par with a THIRD party (the government - not God) taking something from one individual, and giving it to some totally unrelated other individual.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Joel View Post
                    What do you see as the difference? (between the "selfish modern" notion and the other notion(s) of individualistic ownership)
                    I cannot expound on the Jewish mindset(s) as it is not my area. My understanding, however, proceeds from how radical modern individualism is and how relatively recent and Western it is. Individualistic notions of ownership arise from these radical notions of the individual; from ancient times and places people could not be understood apart from their social roles without massive loss of meaning, but in modern times a strong stream of thought has the individual defining himself, often against society and its preconceived roles. Hence as such radical individualistic Western notions postdate ancient Judaism and, as far as I am aware, show no signs of being found within it, we can conclude with some great certainty that they will not have been able to conceive of them, including radical individualistic understanding of property and ownership.

                    It's a long history, involving areas such as ethics, philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology, and requires the deconstruction of much of what is integral to many common types of worldviews, including my own and I am woefully underequipped to expound on it. However, if you insist, I'll do my best (we start with Homer).

                    On another note, I would not now prefer to use the word 'selfish' because of the pejorative it connotes. 'Self-centered' would be slightly better but I know of no good way to convey in a concise manner how radically individualistic the notions and the worldview(s) they spring from are.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      A lie: you quoted entirely out of context.
                      I've noticed that you're awefully quick to falsely accuse people of lying when you find yourself backed into a corner.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        How do you define debt forgiveness if not a redistribution of wealth? How does one define the mandate to leave portions of a harvest for the poor, if this doesn't constitute a redistribution of wealth?
                        Again, the debt forgiveness laws of Jubilee only applied to voluntary contracts, and it was expected that the borrower would diligently work to pay off as much of the debt as possible; similarly, leaving grain on the edges of fields wan't "redistribution" as much as it was giving the poor the opportunity to work for their food, a principle carried forward into the New Testament with Paul's declaration that those who don't work shouldn't eat.

                        Sorry, Sam, but you simply can't use scripture to justify modern liberal notions of "wealth redistribution", no matter how much you wish you could.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          I've noticed that you're awefully quick to falsely accuse people of lying when you find yourself backed into a corner.
                          Stop desperately projecting, idiot. When you make an obvious mistake admit it and move one: you twisted my claim that the Jews would not comprehend 'such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership, and represented me as claiming that Jews would not be able to comprehend any individualist sense of ownership.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Stop desperately projecting, idiot. When you make an obvious mistake admit it and move one: you twisted my claim that the Jews would not comprehend 'such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership, and represented me as claiming that Jews would not be able to comprehend any individualist sense of ownership.
                            You accuse me of lying, and then claim I'm projecting when I call you on it. Son, you're all kinds of confused.

                            Here, I'll just your own words speak against you:

                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            It justifies a reexamination of modern concepts of 'ownership' - which tends to be individualistic rather than communalistic.
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            An an ancient collectivistic Jew might just find it hard to understand how people could ever embrace such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership.


                            Sorry, kiddo, but ancient Israel did not have a "communalistic" view of ownership, nor would they be baffled by what you, in a fit question begging, call "selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership". Otherwise, those in ancient Israel who owned the means for food production would not have needed a law to exhort them to leave gleanings for the poor at the edges of their field because in a communalistic society, the poor would have been able to boldly walk into the middle of field and pick grain right next to the property owner. I will also reiterate that in the system established by Old Testament law, if the poor wanted to eat then they were expected to work for their meal.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              You accuse me of lying, and then claim I'm projecting when I call you on it. Son, you're all kinds of confused...Here, I'll just your own words speak against you:
                              Nah, you lie and attempt to wriggle out by denying it.

                              Sorry, kiddo, but ancient Israel did not have a "communalistic" view of ownership, nor would they be baffled by what you, in a fit question begging, call "selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership". Otherwise, those in ancient Israel who owned the means for food production would not have needed a law to exhort them to leave gleanings for the poor at the edges of their field because in a communalistic society, the poor would have been able to boldly walk into the middle of field and pick grain right next to the property owner.
                              I will give you one last chance and repeat myself: I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership. Nowhere did I claim that the Jews viewed everything as absolutely communal property.

                              I will also reiterate that in the system established by Old Testament law, if the poor wanted to eat then they were expected to work for their meal.
                              You can't help dragging in your provincial quarrels, can you? I am not claiming that the poor should not work. But it is crystal clear that those better off were commanded to lend to the poor even when it would be an effective gift, which is one form of wealth redistribution.

                              Comment


                              • Paprika, at this point, please stop posting in my thread. I only ask this because you are not contributing anything to the topic, and seem to be interested in only in picking fights.

                                If you wish to return to the topic, you can remain. Same goes for everyone else (Mountain Man). I don't mind the topic wandering around a bit, but how we got from minimum wage to Jewish communism is a real mystery, and even that has just devolved into an "I said/you said" playground fight.

                                Comment

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