Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

True orthodoxy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    I disagree here, since is it Yahweh [= Self-Existent] who is autotheos.
    Only the Father can be autotheos, else the Son was not begotten (which requires cause) and the Spirit does not proceed from the Father which scripture demands (both begettal and procession are the result of cause).

    By the way: YHWH does not indicate "self-existence" it indicates "ever-existent". Hence the angel of YHWH that revealed himself to Moses goes on to describe himself as the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac and the God of Jacob.

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    That the Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit are Yahweh.
    They definitely share the same name (as I do my father). Compare John 17:12 "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, [the name] which you have given me..." and Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (nb: name here is singular).

    Regarding the YHWH that the patriarchs encountered...

    Who were the three men that Abraham provided refreshment in Genesis 18? The text has Abraham identify one of them as YHWH! Chapter 19 describes the other two men as angels.

    Also, how is it that Gen 19:24 describes two YHWH's acting in unison, one on earth and the other in heaven.

    Also, how is it that we are told that no one has ever seen God (YHWH) with their eyes, when Abraham obviously did and Moses got a glimpse of his back?

    Contemplate, John 8:40 and think upon Gen 18 and you might be led to an answer regarding who the patriarchs encountered.

    Also, read up on what the KJV refers to as "the angel of the LORD. The Aramaic Targums used by the Jews to explain the OT refers to him as "the memra of YHWH" which corresponds to John 1:1 where we read of the "Word of God".

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The three Persons are co-eternal and one and the same essence/nature as God.
    From the viewpoint of the economy of the salvation plan (what is called the Economic Trinity) each is God to us. However if you read John 20:17 you'll discover that our God (Jesus) has a God which he identifies as his Father.

    To use the language of the ancient church the three hypostases each possess the same ousia (essence) as evidenced by their physes (common activity).

    I get the feeling that English is your second language and you are new to Christianity thus lacking a firm foundation in scripture to base your opinions (???). Your remarks remind me of conversations I've had with newbie associates of Iglesia ni Cristo, and one Muslim fellow who here at TWEB pretended he was Christian.

    I have plenty of time for anyone that seeks truth...provided they make an attempt to base their opinions on scripture...
    Last edited by apostoli; 07-05-2015, 01:41 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
      Only the Father can be autotheos, else the Son was not begotten (which requires cause) and the Spirit does not proceed from the Father which scripture demands (both begettal and procession are the result of cause).
      The Son was never begotten to be caused being the Son, but was always the Son even as the Father was always the Father. The Son is the Cause of all things (John 1:3). There is no Father without the Son even as there is no Son without the Father.
      By the way: YHWH does not indicate "self-existence" it indicates "ever-existent". Hence the angel of YHWH that revealed himself to Moses goes on to describe himself as the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac and the God of Jacob.
      And that YHWH was the Son (John 1:18 KJV; RV; ASV; NKJV). The Name YHWH is third person sigular for "I AM" (John 8:24, 58). And does mean "Self-Existent" (Strong's Number 3086, ... self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: ...)

      They definitely share the same name (as I do my father).
      It is not merely a shared Name, but the very identity, being God.
      ". . . I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD[YHWH]; and beside me [there is] no saviour. . . ." -- Isaiah 43:10, 11.
      ". . . by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth . . . _ . . . Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. . . " Acts 4:10-12.
      ". . . To him[Jesus] give all the prophets witness, that through his name[YHWH] whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. . . . " -- Acts 10:43.




      Compare John 17:12 "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, [the name] which you have given me..." and Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (nb: name here is singular).

      Regarding the YHWH that the patriarchs encountered...

      Who were the three men that Abraham provided refreshment in Genesis 18? The text has Abraham identify one of them as YHWH! Chapter 19 describes the other two men as angels.
      ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. . . ." -- John 1:18.
      Also, how is it that Gen 19:24 describes two YHWH's acting in unison, one on earth and the other in heaven.
      ". . . And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. . . ." -- John 3:13.

      Also, how is it that we are told that no one has ever seen God (YHWH) with their eyes, when Abraham obviously did and Moses got a glimpse of his back?
      Again, ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. . . ." -- John 1:18.


      Contemplate, John 8:40 and think upon Gen 18 and you might be led to an answer regarding who the patriarchs encountered.
      They encountered the pre-incarnate Son of God.

      Also, read up on what the KJV refers to as "the angel of the LORD. The Aramaic Targums used by the Jews to explain the OT refers to him as "the memra of YHWH" which corresponds to John 1:1 where we read of the "Word of God".
      Who was both "with God" v1, 2 and "was God" v.1.
      From the viewpoint of the economy of the salvation plan (what is called the Economic Trinity) each is God to us. However if you read John 20:17 you'll discover that our God (Jesus) has a God which he identifies as his Father.
      The trinity, the Persons of God always were the One God. Only the Son always had two natures even before He became man. He was both "with God" having a God, and "was God."
      ". . . But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. . . ." -- Hebrews 1:8, 9.

      To use the language of the ancient church the three hypostases each possess the same ousia (essence) as evidenced by their physes (common activity).
      Being one nature as God.
      I get the feeling that English is your second language and you are new to Christianity thus lacking a firm foundation in scripture to base your opinions (???). Your remarks remind me of conversations I've had with newbie associates of Iglesia ni Cristo, and one Muslim fellow who here at TWEB pretended he was Christian.
      English is my only language and I have been a Christian 53 years. Holy Scripture is the primary foundation of my theology, not the statements of faith. Which BTW I mostly agree with. Where I do not agree with statements of faith is where they contradict the word of God or needlessly add to the word of God. [Trinity is the name of the explanation that the three Persons, Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the one God. Which the Holy Scripture does so teach. It is no mystery but an explanation.]
      I have plenty of time for anyone that seeks truth...provided they make an attempt to base their opinions on scripture...
      That is fair. Only those who accept God's truth can come to God's Christ as Savior (John 18:37, Jesus taught, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
      ; John 10:27-28; John 14:6).

      I'm not debating you. But explaining my understanding. I am open to correction.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The Name YHWH is third person sigular for "I AM" (John 8:24, 58).
        Are you sure? "He is" is third person singular.
        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          Are you sure? "He is" is third person singular.
          Yes, "He is" is third person singular for "I am." God's Name means "He is."
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818
            And that YHWH was the Son (John 1:18 KJV; RV; ASV; NKJV). The Name YHWH is third person sigular for "I AM" (John 8:24, 58). And does mean "Self-Existent" (Strong's Number 3086, ... self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: ...)
            I may reply to the rest of your post tomorrow but for now...

            I can't let your absolute, irredeemable ignorance concerning the tetragrammaton go! YHWH is from the Hebrew not the Greek. At Ex 3:14 where Moses encountered the name of God for the first time we do not encounter the tetragrammaton, which consists of the four letters yod, hé, vau hé, but the phrase "hayah asher hayah". By the way, the LXX translates this into Greek as "ego eimi ho wn"="I am the being". Another version in an effort to reflect the Hebrew grammar renders "ego eimi ego esomai"="I am what I will be".

            The Greek "ego eimi" used in the NT is the simple "I am [insert whatever here]" as we normally use it in English. No one equates it with Ex 3:14 these days. These days some scriptures where the "ego eimi" is encountered in the NT are taken as direct pointers to Isaiah...

            The context of John 8:24 is a simple act of identification "unless you believe ego eimi [I am he, the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins". Read through the following text and your eyes might be opened, for Jesus refers to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the awaited Messiah and after applying such to himself many came to believe in him. John 8:28-30

            "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he the Messiah], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him".

            Note: they believed him to be the Messiah not YHWH!
            Last edited by apostoli; 07-07-2015, 07:57 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
              I may reply to the rest of your post tomorrow but for now...

              I can't let your absolute, irredeemable ignorance concerning the tetragrammaton go! YHWH is from the Hebrew not the Greek. At Ex 3:14 where Moses encountered the name of God for the first time we do not encounter the tetragrammaton, which consists of the four letters yod, hé, vau hé, but the phrase "hayah asher hayah". By the way, the LXX translates this into Greek as "ego eimi ho wn"="I am the being". Another version in an effort to reflect the Hebrew grammar renders "ego eimi ego esomai"="I am what I will be".

              The Greek "ego eimi" used in the NT is the simple "I am [insert whatever here]" as we normally use it in English. No one equates it with Ex 3:14 these days. These days some scriptures where the "ego eimi" is encountered in the NT are taken as direct pointers to Isaiah...

              The context of John 8:24 is a simple act of identification "unless you believe ego eimi [I am he, the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins". Read through the following text and your eyes might be opened, for Jesus refers to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the awaited Messiah and after applying such to himself many came to believe in him. John 8:28-30

              "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he the Messiah], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him".

              Note: they believed him to be the Messiah not YHWH!
              Jesus refers to himself as the "I am" (John 8:24, 58). YHWH the Hebrew Name is of course only third person of the Hebrew (Exodus 3:14, ". . .Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.") "I AM."

              Jesus is identified as YHWH, John 8:56 (John 1:18), Gensis 12:7 and John 12:41, Isaiah 6:5.

              You presumed me to be so ignorant, I presumed your scholarship, that you knew, and you did, so I did not so carefully explain. Again, I am not debating you, sir.

              Even if I fail to understand, I fully welcome your enlightenment. Thank you.
              Last edited by 37818; 07-07-2015, 08:34 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Jesus refers to himself as the "I am" (John 8:24, 58). YHWH the Hebrew Name is of course only third person of the Hebrew (Exodus 3:14, ". . .Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.") "I AM."

                Jesus is identified as YHWH, John 8:56 (John 1:18), Gensis 12:7 and John 12:41, Isaiah 6:5.
                If Jesus had applied Ex 3:14 to himself A.John wouldn't have used "ego eimi" but "ho wn". As I said there is nothing of significance in Jesus using the phrase "ego eimi". The LXX translates the Hebrew "hayah asher hayah" into Greek as "ego eimi ho wn"="I am the being". In the LXX, at Exodus 3:14 YHWH tells Moses "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the being hath sent me unto you."

                Have a reread of what I said in my previous post (#20), I suspect you missed some important points.

                I paid particular attention to John 8:24 & 28-30. As I said "ego eimi" here and in most of the NT has the same usage as the "I am" in English, and is either directly predicated or implied from the context of a passage.

                Jesus' audience responds in vs25 to what was said in vs24 "Then said they unto him, Who art thou?". Notice Jesus didn't respond directly (just as he is indirect in vs24)..."Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning". Now who/what was that? He at no time, directly or indirectly, identified himself as YHWH anywhere in the NT. Of interest: Jesus didn't directly identify himself as the Messiah to any Jew including his disciples (However, he hinted at it to the blind man, and directly proclaimed himself as the Messiah to the Samaritan woman. Of Peter, Jesus said it was revealed to him by the Father (Mt 16:16-17)).

                Again, the use of "ego eimi" at John 8:58 is of no immediate significance. As many a grammarian has attested, John 8:58 can readily be rendered "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born." Such an ascertain would have been enough for the Jews to gather stones. It wasn't the first time they wanted to stone him.

                The Pharisees, who believed in angels, just might have suddenly realised what Jesus had said at John 8:40 (cp Gen 18) and may have understood Jesus as claiming to be he who had visited Abraham = the Memra of YHWH (the angel of the Lord). The Pharisees (and Sadducees) would have accepted that no man had ever seen God. It is unlikely that they thought him to be claiming to be the God of Exodus 3:14. Think back to John 8:25 "Then said they unto him, Who art thou? Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning". The Pharisees earlier had attempted to stone Jesus for claiming to be the Son of God.

                I've got a health problem that prevents me from spending any length of time on the computer (my legs swell up painfully and I end up not being able to walk for a while). So I'll reply to you as I can. Got to go...
                Last edited by apostoli; 07-07-2015, 12:36 PM.

                Comment

                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                Working...
                X