Pick a believer's brain

[Amazing Rando]

You've puzzled yourself clueless trying to figure out why. Here's your chance to ask me why Jesus Christ is my Lord. Ask anything at all! But remember- this is not the Apologetics forum. I won't be doing any arguing in this thread no matter how much you may try to rile me up. So if you want to participate, please be respectful and earnest. Thanks in advance! Now let's hear your questions.

[mentored1]

You've puzzled yourself clueless trying to figure out why. Here's your chance to ask me why Jesus Christ is my Lord. Ask anything at all! But remember- this is not the Apologetics forum. I won't be doing any arguing in this thread no matter how much you may try to rile me up. So if you want to participate, please be respectful and earnest. Thanks in advance! Now let's hear your questions.

Hola Rando! I'll try my best to avoid the types of questions that solicite argument: so if it appears that way please answer in accordance with your original statement.... My Triune questions follow:

1. Without your belief and the faith that follows from it how do you know the Christ is indeed working in your life? (i.e. aside from saying "I believe He is" or "because I have faith he is")

2. With the incredible see-saw war of Creationism-Evolution and the implications that Genesis may not be literally true do you still uphold the divine creation of the universe? In other words if it were proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the universe evolved from a 'big-bang' (or whatever it entails) does that undermine the six-day creation and all that follows?

3. Assuming you do not hear the voice of God or see miraculous visions of Heaven (and the dead raised up, the sick healed by touch, and so forth) how do you know (i.e. not just believe by faith) that those things did indeed happen if they no longer happen and God does not change (Malachai?)?


I appreciate the offer and look forward to picking your gray matter

[Ruth]

If the xian god is truly all powerful, then why do more than 4 billion out of the 6.4 billion people on Earth reject jesus and the bible?
Why are all the gods silent and unseen?
What would happen if an immovable object were struck by an irresistable force?

[anthrogirl]

Did/does Jesus really want people to worship him?

[Gilgaron]

Are you an exclusivist or inclusivist and why?

[Amazing Rando]

Hey folks! Thanks for dropping by. Can you believe I flat out forgot about this thread? It's been a long week.

Hola Rando! I'll try my best to avoid the types of questions that solicite argument: so if it appears that way please answer in accordance with your original statement.... My Triune questions follow:

1. Without your belief and the faith that follows from it how do you know the Christ is indeed working in your life? (i.e. aside from saying "I believe He is" or "because I have faith he is")

2. With the incredible see-saw war of Creationism-Evolution and the implications that Genesis may not be literally true do you still uphold the divine creation of the universe? In other words if it were proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the universe evolved from a 'big-bang' (or whatever it entails) does that undermine the six-day creation and all that follows?

3. Assuming you do not hear the voice of God or see miraculous visions of Heaven (and the dead raised up, the sick healed by touch, and so forth) how do you know (i.e. not just believe by faith) that those things did indeed happen if they no longer happen and God does not change (Malachai?)?


I appreciate the offer and look forward to picking your gray matter

These are fantastic and sincere questions, mentored. Thanks for being thoughful! I'll give it the best shot I can.

1. Without your belief and the faith that follows from it how do you know the Christ is indeed working in your life? (i.e. aside from saying "I believe He is" or "because I have faith he is")

The best evidence I have (excluding faith) is the evidence of a transformed life. It's been about four years or so since I placed my trust in Him, and my life has literally reprioritized itself through no conscious decision of my own. Self is no longer important to me. Obviously, I don't claim to have "arrived" or "perfected" my faith yet, and I don't believe it'll happen until I see the Lord face to face, but my life has been a continual process of reprioritization away from self, and it's been increasing exponentially in recent years.

2. With the incredible see-saw war of Creationism-Evolution and the implications that Genesis may not be literally true do you still uphold the divine creation of the universe? In other words if it were proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the universe evolved from a 'big-bang' (or whatever it entails) does that undermine the six-day creation and all that follows?

Honestly, that's not a major issue for me. I don't believe the earth was created in seven literal days 7,000 years ago or anything. I don't hold the "primieval histories" of Genesis 1-10 to be completely literal history because of their character, the way they were written, and their content... yet neither do I reject them as "pious fiction" or anything. The truths of Genesis inform me about the sick condition of world, the part humanity has played in adding to its woes, and the desire of its loving Creator to somehow set everything right again despite the impetuous rebellion of his children.

Gotta go for now- back later for more!

[Amazing Rando]

One more from mentored:

3. Assuming you do not hear the voice of God or see miraculous visions of Heaven (and the dead raised up, the sick healed by touch, and so forth) how do you know (i.e. not just believe by faith) that those things did indeed happen if they no longer happen and God does not change (Malachai?)?

It depends on what you mean. The God of the Christian faith is an active God, always at work in his creation. It would be a poor faith indeed that would deny his presence and activity in our daily lives through the Holy Spirit. God does speak to me. He's always speaking to me, and at times, his words have meant the difference to me between life and death. The problem is, I'm not always listening like I ought!

That said, I've not heard a big, booming voice from heaven, not seen (with my eyes) angels or demons or the like, and not healed anyone by touch or anything. Yet others have, and I suppose you might think me a bit credulous, but I believe them. Basically the reason I trust that the things described in the gospels did in fact occur is because given the historical circumstances, I believe they best explain the data. This, plus a trust that the God I know can in fact do these things, leads me to believe in their truth. In the same way I know through faith (see Hebrews 11) that he raised Jesus from the dead, I also know through faith that he'll raise me on the last day as well.

[Amazing Rando]

In another thread, I said:

Certainly many of the slanderous accusations coming against faith come from insincere motives or some warped hatred of the faith and the faithful

If the xian god is truly all powerful, then why do more than 4 billion out of the 6.4 billion people on Earth reject jesus and the bible?
Why are all the gods silent and unseen?
What would happen if an immovable object were struck by an irresistable force?

Case in point.

[Amazing Rando]

Did/does Jesus really want people to worship him?

ag!

With all my heart, yes, I believe so. The reasons for this belief are more complex than you might think, however. Jesus came as a humble, lowly servant first and foremost. The Bible's pretty clear on that:

Mark10:45

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

The passage that best typifies this incredible servant mentality is the footwashing incident reported in John's gospel. If I may, I'd like to quote the whole thing because it's one of my favorite gospel passages:

John 13

1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.

2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Not only did Jesus come as a lowly, selfless servant, but he taught his disciples that this was what he wanted them to do too.

Now wait, you might say. If Jesus came to serve rather than to serve, why would you worship him? And that's a good question.

To answer it, I need to explore a bit of what the New testament, particularly the synoptic tradition, has to say regarding humility and exaltation. The gospels, as you may know, portray a remarkable "flipping" of what we would consider common sense human values. We humans value pride, stature, wealth, and looking out for self-interest as virtues to strive for. Jesus, on the other hand, taught an ethic that's radically opposed to "common sense."

Two key pericopes from Luke 14 help illustrate this radical inversion of values:

Luke 14

7When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: 8"When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. 9If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this man your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. 10But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests. 11For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus here encourages humility in everything, illustrated by the choosing of the "lowest place" at the feast you're invited to. The key part here comes in the reversal- if you choose the "place of honor," you risk shame and embarassment when the host comes along and "demotes" you down to the lowliest place, and if you choose the lowliest place, the host will tell you to move up to a better place. Here, like in so many of Jesus' parables, the host represents God. As illustrated by the "punchline" of verse 11, if you humble yourself before God and before other people, you will be lifted up- please see James 4:10 and 1 Peter 5:6.

Jesus followed up that teaching in Luke's version with this:

Luke 14

12Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

You'll be repaid for your generosity not in this life, but at "the resurrection of the righteous." To paraphrase what Jesus was trying to say, "Be patient! Your reward will come in due time. Right now, give, give, give; serve, serve, serve; love, love, love with all your heart. This is what I require of you."

Now back to the question. Where does all this leave us? As we saw, God will lift up, or exalt, those who in this life become servants to others. And who is the model of perfect servanthood in the Bible? It's Jesus, hands down. He's the ultimate selfless servant, giving everything, even his very life, for the sake of his friends. For this reason, God exalted Jesus higher than any of us could ever wish to go- to sit at his right hand. In other words, the ultimate place of honor for one who chose the lowliest place.

This is why we worship him- because he alone is worthy of our praise.

I hope I've conveyed some of the inner workings of my faith for you AG. Does that make it any easier to understand?

That's the biblical and spiritual explanation. Now for the baser, less sophisticated reason so common in popular apologetics.

Throughout the gospels, you may find various people falling down over themselves in front of Jesus. An example is John 9:38, or Matthew 28:9. The Greek word so often translated as "worship" in these two passages is [greek]proskunew[/greek], which literally means, to fall before, prostrate oneself, or kneel before. In Jewish custom, one did not do such an otherwise shameful act unless one was in the very presence of God. This is why the word is translated worship- these folks, the blind man, the disciples, and everyone else who fell at his feet, was worshiping Jesus. He never rebukes them, and in fact one can deduce using modern literary criticism of the gospels that the gospel writers believe this is the proper reaction to Jesus.

I like my first explanation so much better.

[Amazing Rando]

Are you an exclusivist or inclusivist and why?

Do you mean exclusivist in the sense of "only Christians will go to heaven/be resurrected?"

[Amazing Rando]

BTW- Christians are welcome to ask questions too!

[Xavier]

BTW- Christians are welcome to ask questions too!

Since you're clarifying... Can believers give counterpoints (in the melodic sense)? (Our own answers...)

[Amazing Rando]

Since you're clarifying... Can believers give counterpoints (in the melodic sense)? (Our own answers...)

Aww what the heck. Sure!

[anthrogirl]

Rando,



thank you for your thoughtful explanation(s). I like your first explanation better, too


Thank you also for including these wonderful passages from the Gospels--I love Jesus' approach to humility, benevolence, compassion and grace--I hope to live according to his maxims (I am a pig, though--it's gonna take some time...).

I do wonder, though (and I don't mean to sound impertinant) if "worship" is the right idea here. I perceive worship as a result of self-aggrandizement. Since Jesus clearly was not a self-aggrandizing person, I find the word "worship" to be suspect. Could "veneration" be a better way to describe it?

Or am I just trying to marry Christianity with Confucianism...?

ag

[Amazing Rando]

Rando,



thank you for your thoughtful explanation(s). I like your first explanation better, too


Thank you also for including these wonderful passages from the Gospels--I love Jesus' approach to humility, benevolence, compassion and grace--I hope to live according to his maxims (I am a pig, though--it's gonna take some time...).

I do wonder, though (and I don't mean to sound impertinant) if "worship" is the right idea here. I perceive worship as a result of self-aggrandizement. Since Jesus clearly was not a self-aggrandizing person, I find the word "worship" to be suspect. Could "veneration" be a better way to describe it?

Or am I just trying to marry Christianity with Confucianism...?

ag

It may be! I did forget one thing I probably should have mentioned- the Incarnation. If Jesus really is the embodiment of the Creator of the universe, who somehow "became flesh and dwelt among us" as the New Testament suggests, then he really is worthy of worship.



That's a really interesting statement you made about worship being the result of self-aggrandizement. Certainly when we think of people who have come to be worshiped, such as the many kings throughout history who were believed to be the embodiment of the gods, that's the result of both self-agrandizement and cultural conditions where the people believed in the "divine right of kings" or that the king was the intersection between heaven and earth, such as in Egypt.

Or there's loonies like Jim Jones who encouraged people to worship them.

Let me ask a couple of questions- of all the people in the world today, do you think that are any who are worthy of worship?

If the God of the Bible exists, do you think it's proper to worship him?

And finally, can you think of any contexts in which worship doesn't have a negative connotation to you?