Lack of Enthusiasm

[Teallaura]

Cool. Fair enough.

[Cow Poke]

Except a paycheck is not a reward.

Sure it is - by definition - "a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement." It's just a pre-negotiated reward.

A paycheck is payment for services rendered.

Meh... I think that's semantics.

For me, I'm trying to state a mutually beneficial relationship between a church and me, i.e. being part of community.

Well, I've found that people come to Church largely for three reasons....

A) Out of a sense of responsibility, conscience, or guilt
2) To be ministered to
C) To minister

Sure, there are others, but it usually boils down to one or more of those.

So, let's look at --- what would your #1 priority be for deciding that a Church is acceptable to you.

For me, it would be that the Pastor is preaching the Word of God, and living what he's preaching. (The music and all the other stuff is secondary)

[footwasher]

Sometimes asking the right questions is more difficult than giving the right answers.

Example
Do I chose phone x or phone y?

In this case, the right question would be:

What do I want my phone to do?

There is a phone x that works flawlessly. Another phone y crashes. It would seem that choice x would be the unavoidable choice. The problem is that phone x makes calls flawless while phone crashes with calls, but does several other things, has more functions, as well.

Now phone x has brought out a new model that does more things than just make phone calls and guess what? It crashes!

The analogy with churches is that people ask the question:

Which is the best type of church to go to?

when they should be asking:

What do I want my church to do?

The answer to the latter of course is:

I want my church to make me perfect (mature), able to teach, be a blessing to others:

Hebrews 5:12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

John 7:38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."

Ezekiel 37:7So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” 10So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

It seems like you need a church with checks and counterbalances, the New Testament church.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I want my church to make me perfect (mature), able to teach, be a blessing to others:

Exactly and with a lot fewer words than I used!

[One Bad Pig]

Exactly and with a lot fewer words than I used!

Church should not be about what you expect to get out of it. That's quite possibly the worst criterion for finding a church, because it focuses on you. Christianity is about focusing on God and others, not on yourself.

[footwasher]

Exactly and with a lot fewer words than I used!

The reason the post resonates with you is because man was created to partner with God:

Genesis 1: 20Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”


Salvation is not protection from hell and shelter in heaven. It is restoration to the original purpose of creation, to manifest God's image in the physical domain:

http://www.dfgc.ca/grow/image-bearing-pt-1

Quote
When God launched his project of New Creation on Easter Morning with the Resurrection of Jesus he was redeeming and commissioning you and I to take up the task of being his image-bearers once more: to reflect God into the world, and to gather the praises of creation in worship unto God. We are in a Temple, and all that we do and become through Christ is intended by God to bring glory and praise to his name. We are created not to evacuate to heaven, but to be the redeemed image-bearers of God in his creation. That is our purpose and calling, and that has not changed.

Next week we look closer at what N.T. Wright calls the twin vocations of the image-bearer: reflecting God to the world, and reflecting the world to God. We will discover that the redeemed people of God are still called to fulfill this vocation in the New Heaven and New Earth. The end for which we strive informs our lives today: we have been created to worship; redeemed to bear God’s image in a broken world.


What a difference from the inadequate view of salvation we have previously learned! In which man is escaping from the bindings of this material world in order to attain to a spiritual destination. A view which reeks of pagan dualism!

God made the world and He called it good! Just as His will is done in heaven, it will also be done on earth! The world is like a magnificent stallion, waiting to be subdued, broken, not to be crippled and humiliated, but to be matched, with man, like a rider and his mount, functioning as one, in purposeful mission, whether in peace, as on a ranch, or in war, as in brave defense.

This to be achieved only through being IN Christ, as was always planned.

Romans 8:14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Church should not be about what you expect to get out of it. That's quite possibly the worst criterion for finding a church, because it focuses on you. Christianity is about focusing on God and others, not on yourself.

Either I am not being clear or you are not reading my posts. Kindly restate what I have said in this thread so I may determine if I am not clearly communicating or you are not carefully reading my posts or both is occurring. Thank you.

[One Bad Pig]

Either I am not being clear or you are not reading my posts. Kindly restate what I have said in this thread so I may determine if I am not clearly communicating or you are not carefully reading my posts or both is occurring. Thank you.

Perhaps I should have replied to footwasher instead, but the phrase you agreed with "exactly" was all about what the church can do for you. I am not saying that this is your general position in the thread. Does that help?

[Thoughtful Monk]

Perhaps I should have replied to footwasher instead, but the phrase you agreed with "exactly" was all about what the church can do for you. I am not saying that this is your general position in the thread. Does that help?

Thanks for clarifying.

What I responded exactly too was this one sentence by footwasher: "I want my church to make me perfect (mature), able to teach, be a blessing to others". The first part is about what the church can provide to me. I suggest the second two items are about what I can provide to the church.

Is the problem that we no longer understand what community means? I definitively include myself in this critique. Is it really church community we attend or a bunch of I's who happen to worship together at the same moment? I submit that community is a lost skill. We no longer know how to be mutually beneficial because we don't know how to be community. Its not taught anymore. Sermons are aimed at each individual to help each one grow as individuals. At best, we have fellowship and then go on our individualistic way.

[One Bad Pig]

Thanks for clarifying.

What I responded exactly too was this one sentence by footwasher: "I want my church to make me perfect (mature), able to teach, be a blessing to others". The first part is about what the church can provide to me. I suggest the second two items are about what I can provide to the church.

The way the sentence is constructed, the second two items are not about that; they are dependent on "I want my church to make me...."

Is the problem that we no longer understand what community means? I definitively include myself in this critique. Is it really church community we attend or a bunch of I's who happen to worship together at the same moment? I submit that community is a lost skill. We no longer know how to be mutually beneficial because we don't know how to be community. Its not taught anymore. Sermons are aimed at each individual to help each one grow as individuals. At best, we have fellowship and then go on our individualistic way.

And "smart"phones and earbuds are only making things worse in this regard.

One of the things I like about Orthodoxy is the sense of community with other Orthodox Christians and the saints (though I acknowledge that some Orthodox Christians tend to identify more with their ethnicity than Orthodoxy in general).

[Thoughtful Monk]

Well after way too long, my wife and I went to church today. Grace Church bought the building from a dying denominational church about 1 mile from our house and today was the first service in the new location.

The best news is my wife likes it and wants to go back next week. The congregation size is a good fit for our crowd comfort and a great mix of ages.

For me, some good points are the worship songs were God focused with no 7X11's, the sermon was based on the Bible, competently preached, and included far more "we", "us", "our" instead of "I", "you". They even did a corporate confession of sin.

Not sure this is it but its real possibility.

Thanks for all who were praying for us in this matter.

[Teallaura]

[Cow Poke]

Well after way too long, my wife and I went to church today. Grace Church bought the building from a dying denominational church about 1 mile from our house and today was the first service in the new location.

The best news is my wife likes it and wants to go back next week. The congregation size is a good fit for our crowd comfort and a great mix of ages.

For me, some good points are the worship songs were God focused with no 7X11's, the sermon was based on the Bible, competently preached, and included far more "we", "us", "our" instead of "I", "you". They even did a corporate confession of sin.

Not sure this is it but its real possibility.

Thanks for all who were praying for us in this matter.

I hope this works out for you guys!

[Rushing Jaws]

By going, is how.

[One Bad Pig]

unus christianus nullus christianus