Salvation before Charles Taze Russell

[Cherith]

I had a couple of JW's come by the house Monday (probably because their employers close for Labor Day). I must have been black-listed because it's been years since they've stopped (since our last big discussion over the Deity of Christ). When the kids have seen them in the neighborhood they've always run inside to tell me and I'll go sit on the porch, Bible in hand, waiting... and they'll just nod and cruise on down the sidewalk.

Anyway, I was up-front with these two women Monday and told them that I was a Christian but I would be glad to talk with them, when one of the women asked me what KIND of Christian I was. I was a little taken aback, but replied that I was a Calvinist in soteriology. So I gave them a short history lesson about the Reformation and we moved on to the nature of the Resurrection (their "theme" for the day, I guess) and they made a note to come back "another day". But it got me to thinking later, the Mormons say that the Gospel was lost until Joseph Smith restored it, but what about the JW's? What is their view of salvation prior to Charles Taze Russell and the New World Translation's spin? Who do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe were their theological/spiritual ancestors/predecessors before Charles T. Russell came on the scene to reinterpret the Bible?

I know that he was a Presbyterian and Congregationalist before he turned skeptic at the tender age of 16. Apparently he was involved with the Masons (per images of his tombstone) as well as the Millerites. But what was HIS justification for reinventing the wheel, so to speak? I know he couldn't stomach the doctrine of Hell/Eternal Punishment, but did he view himself as a modern prophet or restorer of the Gospel?

Thanks in advance,
--C

[Krusader]

I had a couple of JW's come by the house Monday (probably because their employers close for Labor Day). I must have been black-listed because it's been years since they've stopped (since our last big discussion over the Deity of Christ). When the kids have seen them in the neighborhood they've always run inside to tell me and I'll go sit on the porch, Bible in hand, waiting... and they'll just nod and cruise on down the sidewalk.

Anyway, I was up-front with these two women Monday and told them that I was a Christian but I would be glad to talk with them, when one of the women asked me what KIND of Christian I was. I was a little taken aback, but replied that I was a Calvinist in soteriology. So I gave them a short history lesson about the Reformation and we moved on to the nature of the Resurrection (their "theme" for the day, I guess) and they made a note to come back "another day". But it got me to thinking later, the Mormons say that the Gospel was lost until Joseph Smith restored it, but what about the JW's? What is their view of salvation prior to Charles Taze Russell and the New World Translation's spin? Who do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe were their theological/spiritual ancestors/predecessors before Charles T. Russell came on the scene to reinterpret the Bible?

I know that he was a Presbyterian and Congregationalist before he turned skeptic at the tender age of 16. Apparently he was involved with the Masons (per images of his tombstone) as well as the Millerites. But what was HIS justification for reinventing the wheel, so to speak? I know he couldn't stomach the doctrine of Hell/Eternal Punishment, but did he view himself as a modern prophet or restorer of the Gospel?

Thanks in advance,
--C

Like the Mormons, JWs teach that (except for a few, like Adam and apostate Jehovah's Witnesses), everybody will be resurrected and given a "second chance" to be obedient in the Millenium. After the Millenium, Satan is loosed and those that follow him will be annihilated in the firey lake.

If they are avoiding your house, you may be on the "goat" list - those are the ones that defend the Christian faith to Jehovah's Witnesses and are considered unreachable (and may be permanently annihilated and never ressurrected for that second chance).

[Sparko]

So it sound like the safest "bet" is to be a Christian and NOT listen to JW propoganda.

that way if they are right after all, you still get resurrected and get 1000 years to make up your mind.

and if we are right, then we go to heaven anyway and they are damned.

Either way we win!

[Krusader]

So it sound like the safest "bet" is to be a Christian and NOT listen to JW propoganda.

that way if they are right after all, you still get resurrected and get 1000 years to make up your mind.

and if we are right, then we go to heaven anyway and they are damned.

Either way we win!

Yes, John, that's basically right. Also, when you stop to think of it, the Mormons teach that it's only apostate Mormons who end up in the firey pit - and so, everybody who dies rejecting Mormonism can still get another chance to receive the restored gospel in the spirit world and have the ordiances done for us by the living.

So, both groups teach a second chance theology - which is necessitated by claiming to be the only true "organizations" on the face of the whole earth!

[David_A_Reed]

The only hitch is that JWs preach no second chance at all for those who are destroyed at Armageddon -- which they believe will be everyone who is not a JW at that time.

So, it's like musical chairs. If you're caught standing when the music stops, you go into eternal destruction.

PS Russell began attending an Adventist church during his teen years, and became associate editor of the Adventist magazine THE HERALD OF THE MORNING at a very young age (because he largely supported it financially). After 10 years as an Adventist, he quit the magazine in 1879 and started publishing ZION'S WATCH TOWER AND HERALD OF CHRIST'S PRESENCE himself, using a copy of the Adventist's mailing list to reach his initial audience.

[Krusader]

The only hitch is that JWs preach no second chance at all for those who are destroyed at Armageddon -- which they believe will be everyone who is not a JW at that time.

So, it's like musical chairs. If you're caught standing when the music stops, you go into eternal destruction.

PS Russell began attending an Adventist church during his teen years, and became associate editor of the Adventist magazine THE HERALD OF THE MORNING at a very young age (because he largely supported it financially). After 10 years as an Adventist, he quit the magazine in 1879 and started publishing ZION'S WATCH TOWER AND HERALD OF CHRIST'S PRESENCE himself, using a copy of the Adventist's mailing list to reach his initial audience.

Yes, you're right. And, then the JWs get to pick up our bones and bury us - one of the slave class's duties during the Millenium. Russellism was really a modified Adventism. Many early Adventists were non-Trinitarian and believed in soul sleep. Russell modified the Second Advent teaching to a invisible second coming, but intially did not teach that there would be an earthly class, but two separate heavenly classes of believers. This was soon changed, and Rutherford molded Russell's doctrines into the Watchtower you see today.

[Oldmonk]

Yes, you're right. And, then the JWs get to pick up our bones and bury us - one of the slave class's duties during the Millenium. Russellism was really a modified Adventism. Many early Adventists were non-Trinitarian and believed in soul sleep. Russell modified the Second Advent teaching to a invisible second coming, but intially did not teach that there would be an earthly class, but two separate heavenly classes of believers. This was soon changed, and Rutherford molded Russell's doctrines into the Watchtower you see today.

Yep. If you believe what the book ," Game Over; A New Man In The Watchtower" ; says then it was Rutherford that was the source of herasy and not the "kindly Russell" !!! The book does show some interesting things though.
They say that at the time that Ray Franz was kicked out of the organization that provissions were made in the constitutional make up of the organization to desolve. Apparently the felt Ray Franz, being on the governing body of the organization , knew too much dirt they had to keep hidden, might reveal all this dirt. That is the alligation from the book.