Originally posted by Paprika
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Natural Science 301 Guidelines
This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.
As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Progress in origin of life research - RNA world
Collapse
X
-
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
-
Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-21-2015, 05:48 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostNarrowness is hardly relevant: that scientists are still exploring varied possibilities for the environment indicates that it is not established that ocean regions were the site of abiogenesis.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by rwatts View PostWell I explained why it was important in my last post. Go back and read it.
I was simply making the easy point that natural OOL experiments can be traced back a few hundred years to the downfall of vitalism.
But you did say that you might tell me.
It looks as if you have no good hypothesis and no experiments.
On the other hand, Christians and non Christians who think that natural processes may have given rise to life, do have a solid hypothetical basis which allows them to experiment and test various ideas
So you have already written. But given that you think very little progress has been made since Urey-Miller, do you think that U-M offered anything like this understanding in their experiments:-
http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)01438-9As with shunya, I have no wish to deal with your adolescent argument by hurling weblinks. Come back when you have something better.I have no desire to entertain any of your elephant-hurling, especially when I have not denied that progress has been made.
Read the paper yourself, and make your own summary here, and I might humour you.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI previously cited parts from the articles that were relevant.
Hydrogen cyanide is...
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain why do you have a problem with this?!?!?!?! You do not know the motivation of the scientists involve. Again it is perfectly normal science to explore all possibilities in their research.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt is simple to deduce from their research that they are exploring different environments for abiogenesis. Hence the ocean regions are unlikely to be the established case as you paint them to be.
References please, especially a reference that the ocean regions, particularly the mid-ocean ridge are in any way unlikely for abiogenesis.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou made one correct quote, and large chunks that you wrongly attributed to it, and yet have not retracted it.
What on earth is this supposed to establish? Though convergent margins may be the "most potent sites" or where life mostly likely started it hardly implies that life actually starting there is likely at all.
Convergent margins are subduction zones where ocean plates meet continental plates, not mid-ocean ridges?' You need to review you science knowledge that you frog hair picking.
Basic knowledge science and geology is important before you nitpick and criticize.
What are your academic qualifications in geology, chemistry, and the biology of abiogenesis.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-22-2015, 04:08 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNothing at all to retract.
The above is a bit confusing.
Convergent margins are subduction zones where ocean plates meet continental plates, not mid-ocean ridges?' You need to review you science knowledge that you frog hair picking.
Basic knowledge science and geology is important before you nitpick and criticize.
What are your academic qualifications in geology, chemistry, and the biology of abiogenesis.
Pathetic.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostUnsubstantiated assertion. Please cite references to support this. You are assuming the motive for research without a basis in how scientists determine what they research.
References please, especially a reference that the ocean regions, particularly the mid-ocean ridge are in any way unlikely for abiogenesis.
This paper critically evaluates various RNA world scenarios. I quote some relevant points:
4.1. Problem 1: the primitive formation of RNA proceeds only under specific conditions
The RNA world hypothesis has been experimentally verified on the basis of different principles. However, further critiques from different viewpoints are also valuable for improving the studies on origin of life as well as the RNA world hypothesis.
Data from simulation experiments for the chemical evolution of RNA indicted that the formation pathways of RNA polymers are through activated nucleotide monomers and inorganic materials (Tables 2and 3). However, some questions remain. First, it is difficult to determine whether the initial conditions are comparable to primitive earth environments. Second, it is not yet clear whether the efficiency of each chemical evolution step is sufficient for usage in later steps, such as the formation of long oligonucleotides. For instance, the yield of ribose formation is considered too low for it to be a source of RNA components [35] and [36]. In addition, the formation of nucleotides from their components seems to be difficult except for under very limited conditions; these investigations were only carried out in very early studies. Thus, the experimental conditions are regarded as plausible primitive earth conditions. It is difficult to determine the exact amount or concentration of ribose necessary for the formation of nucleosides; this evaluation has not yet been carried out. Similar questions can be asked for proteins. Verification of the initial conditions, where the RNA polymers could have formed, would be important for the evaluation of the accumulation of RNA or RNA-like molecules.
Those proposing ocean scenarios (or most scenarios in general) cannot verify the initial conditions, which was necessary in the experiments they report. Now without such empirical proof, all we have to fall on is the very well known difficulties and hence unlikely reactions involved in forming RNA, especially macromolecule formation.
The accumulation of RNA is determined by both the rate of its formation and its degradation, and the flow rate of inflow and outflow to the system (Fig. 7) [28] and [83]. This is important since a life-like system emerged in a thermodynamically open system. However, it is noted that the importance of the relative rates of the formation and degradation is not appropriately studied. For instance, if the relative rate between formation and degradation is similar between the two different systems, the accumulation behavior as a function of time becomes analogous between these systems.
An experimental setup that simulates an open system of RNA chemical evolution is currently difficult. Mathematical simulations cannot be properly performed, since kinetic data are not sufficiently available for the formation and degradation of activated nucleotide monomers and product oligonucleotides. Thus, the discussion about the assumption that under the primitive earth conditions, proteins are more likely to accumulate compared to the RNA molecules is not meaningful even if one attempts to assume whether RNA or protein is suitable as the first material for the life-like system based on the stabilities of the molecules.
So much is still unknown, as above.
4.3. Problem 3: In vitro selection for functional RNA requires molecular biology techniques. were there such effective selection mechanisms for the RNA-based life-like system?
In vitro selection of RNA involves analogous processes to the real evolution of organisms. However, this method consists of totally artificial materials and procedures such as a DNA synthesizer, in vitro transcription of DNA to RNA, affinity column chromatography, which binds target RNA, and reverse-transcription PCR ( Fig. 5). The question is whether such an evolutionary system was present under the primitive earth environment. Although this should be experimentally verified, such attempts have not been successful.
In sum, to the best of our knowledge there is no natural mechanism for sorting through useless and [life-]functional RNA. Without such a mechanism, the rise of life would be quite unlikely.
And so on and so forth; you can read the rest at the link.
Now, do note that I don't plan to give any more references unless a) you can provide any reference that supports your own position - that the ocean regions, particularly the mid-ocean ridge are in any way likely for abiogenesis, which you haven't up to this point and b) you can refute what this paper has brought up.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostEverything here to retract.
More like it blows apart your entire case.
Dumbass, I'm quoting the article you cited.
And now you want to play the citation game to disqualify? When you can't even attribute quotes correctly? When you can't even recognise that I'm quoting from a source you first introduced?
Pathetic.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhat are your qualifications for making your assertions?
I can actually quote and make arguments from papers, unlike yourself.
Which is why you're playing the qualifications game, trying to disqualify because you can't win by reasonable argument. Utterly pathetic.Last edited by Paprika; 04-23-2015, 06:57 AM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt is simple to deduce from their research that they are exploring different environments for abiogenesis. Hence the ocean regions are unlikely to be the established case as you paint them to be.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Paprika View Post
I can actually quote and make arguments from papers, unlike yourself.
Which is why you're playing the qualifications game, trying to disqualify because you can't win by reasonable argument. Utterly pathetic.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo you have not supported your assertions
nor have you provided you qualifications to make ridiculous assertions.
But go on, keep trying to disqualify. Expose your desperation.
Comment
Comment