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Thread: Derail from Orthodox Anathema Service on Christology

  1. #261
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisto View Post
    I know you are not a tritheist nor claim to be one, and I do not accuse you of being one. However, so far I am not convinced by your way of connecting and differentiating Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    For instance, in your post #258, I get the impression of Father and Spirit being the same entity without differentiation, except for the fact that you call them two of three Persons. This reminded me of Unitarianism. While in your previous one (#256) I got the impression that they are three entities, each with its own characterization, who only share the fact that they are all "uncaused" (therefore, eternal?). This reminded me of tritheism.

    Again, I am not stating that you see it as either unitarianism nor tritheism. Instead, I personally find your explanations confusing, and sometimes leaning towards those.
    We agree that there is one God and three Persons who are that God. Are the persons God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit without beginning? Yes. Do you not see to hold the view that the Son of God was eternally begotten is to argue that th eternal Son of God, without a beginning, nevertheless was caused?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #262
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisto View Post

    Now, about post #259.

    Indeed, Wisdom gets called "created" there. Still, that very passage adds bits that apparently want to show her "creation" was before Creation and time itself (1:4, "before all things... from everlasting"), in line with what Scripture had previously said about Wisdom (i.e. Prov. 8). Besides, this is God's very Wisdom we (and they) are talking about; He is and always was wise, just as we would affirm He is and always was Father.

    You may think that for Jews, calling Wisdom "created" somehow made her a part of Creation instead of "a part" of God. Let me quote Mr. Bauckham on this little bit:

    "Mediator" figures: Personified or unified divine aspects

    The second category of mediator figures, aspects of God that are personified or unified, turns out to be, by the same criteria, very different. Both the Word and the Wisdom of God take part in Creation, ocassionally with very distinguishable roles[35], sometimes interchangeable[36]. The texts in question leave it very clear that they are not infringing the standard monotheistic insistence that God created without any kind of help[37]. II Enoch 33:4, echoing Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 40:13)[38], says that God had no advisor at Creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had nobody to advise him. His Wisdom, who is no one, but an quality intrinsic to his own identity, advised him. In a similar way, his Wisdom is described as sitting on the great throne next to God, partaking in the exercise of his sovereignty by adopting the role of the king's counselor (I Enoch 84:2, 3; Wisdom 9:4, 10). Here the image that literature abstains from applying to any angelical servant of God is applied to Wisdom, without this going in detriment to the clear distinction between God and the rest of reality, precisely because this symbol serves to include Wisdom in the unique identity of the God who rules the Cosmos frmo his exalted one throne. Generally, the personifications of the Word of God and the Wisdom of God in literature are not parallel with the descriptions of exalted angels as servants of God. The personifications have been developed precisely from ideas of God's own Wisdom and Word, that is, aspects of God's own identity. They express God in different forms, his mind and his will, in relation to the world. They are not created beings, but they are not semi-divine entities taking an ambiguous place between God and the rest of reality. They belong to the one divine identity.

    My conclusion that the Word and the Wisdom of God are intrinsic to the one divine identity, as is understood in Jewish Monotheism, does not decide the matter (which, in my opinion, must be secondary) of whether the personification of these figures in literature is merely a literary resource or if they are conceived as having some form of distinctive existence, in reality. I believe there exists a good argument for this last one, at least in some texts about Wisdom (for example, Wisdom 7.22-8.1), but this does not mean that Wisdom is conceived as a subordinate divine being intrinsic to the identity of the one God. It means that these Jewish writers conceived some form of real distinction within the one identity of the one God. If it is thus, they are not abandoning, or in any case compromising their Jewish Monotheism. Second Temple Jewish understanding about the divine unicity does not define him as unitarian and does not make distinctions within the divine identity to be inconceivable. Their perfectly clear distinction between God and external reality is made in other terms that, in this case, place the Wisdom of God unequivocally within the one divine identity.

    ---
    Footnotes:
    [35] Ps. 33:9; IV Ezra 6:38; II Bar. 56:3-4; II Enoch 33:4.
    [36] Wisdom: Jer. 10:12, 51:15; Ps. 104:24; Prov. 3:19; 8:30; Sir. 24:3b, Wisdom 7:22; 8:4-6; cf. 1QH 9:7, 14, 20; Wisdom 9:2.
    Word: Ps. 33:6; Sir. 42:15; Jub. 12:4; Sibiline Oracles 3:20; II Bar. 14:17; 21:4; 48:8; IV Ezra 6:38; T. Abr. A9:6; Wisdom 9:1.
    [37] Isaiah 44:24; II Enoch 33:4, IV Ezra 3:4; Josephus C. Apocalypse 2.192.
    [38] cf. Sir. 42:21; I Enoch 14:22; Wisdom 9:13, 17; 1QS 11:18, 19.

    Source: Richard Bauckham, "God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology in the NT", p.30-31 (Spanish version)
    A few things to note.
    The Book of Wisdom and the Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach, even given what is said in them to be true. They are not God-breathed holy scriptures.

    Proverbs 8:22, wisdom says she is a possession of the LORD, indicating that spirit of wisdom is someone who is not the LORD God. Which if the spirit of wisdom is the preincarnate Logos would affirm having a nature other than being God (being both with God and was God).

    And most important is the Logos identity as God the uncaused cause in that nothing that was made was made without Him (John 1:3). The Logos is the LORD God Creator. Through whom God the Father created all things.



    (I don't know how you guys quote using a gray square that can have the title above it )
    Just for reference I used above the BOX /BOX instruction. There also the CITE="" /CITE instruction of a citation and then there is now also a VERSE= /VERSE citation option.
    Code:
    |BOX| Your text here. |/BOX|
    |CITE="Name of source here"|The citation from the source here|/CITE|
    [VERSE=Bible Reference]Scripture verse here.|/VERSE|
    | | |/ | = [  ] [/ ]



    And again, I think that equating this "Wisdom of God/YHWH" character with the "spirit of wisdom" sometimes mentioned in Scripture (who more resembles a quality or gift than a person when it appears) is pretty much unwarranted, for the reasons I previously mentioned (post #254).

    Finally, in your last two paragraphs, I don't see what is your point. You quote what is said of Wisdom and of Christ. Do you intend to show both descriptions as essentially different? Because to me they are easily recognisable parallels, even if there weren't any word choices linking both characters like the unusual "apaugasma". And that passage also calls Wisdom the "image" (eikon) of God's goodness, like Philo would also say (Wisdom as God's image/eikon)... and just like Jesus is called the "image" of God in Col 1:15. (Not to mention "firstborn" in that Colossians verse...)
    Being the image of God's goodness and being the very image of God (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15) are two different things as I understand this.
    Now regarding Christ being the "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15) this has to do with His incarnation and resurrection (Colossians 1:15; Romans 8:21-22; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; Romans 8:23, 29; 1 John 3:2).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #263
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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