Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Derail from Orthodox Anathema Service on Christology

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    I am not misinterpting, I understand that interpretation. It simply is not Biblical at all. At issue is not the eternal second Person of the Trinity. But like the term "Trinity," the terminology "the eternal Son," while Biblical, those terms are not used in Holy Scripture. I believe in the eternal Sonship.
    See this article: https://bbhchurchconnection.wordpres...ship-of-jesus/
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It looks like you're saying 'the eternal Son' is not Biblical at all, but then you call it Biblical in the next sentence. The phrase 'begotten of the Father before all ages" is intended to affirm the eternal Sonship of Jesus.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Got Scripture?
      The terms 'expression' and 'radiance' are themselves what points towards the Son being begotten by the Father.

      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      There is only the One God. The Persons who are that One God are co-eternal, therefore are unbegotten being that One God.
      There is no contradiction between being eternal and being begotten.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It looks like you're saying 'the eternal Son' is not Biblical at all, but then you call it Biblical in the next sentence. The phrase 'begotten of the Father before all ages" is intended to affirm the eternal Sonship of Jesus.
        So based on that logic the Trinity is not Biblical! That the terminology is what is not found in the Bible. The truth that there are three Persons who are each identified to be that one God, is taught in the word of God. That the only-begotten Son preexisted creation is taught in holy scripture. What is not taught in the Bible is the idea that the Son was begotten before His creation.
        Last edited by 37818; 03-03-2015, 08:12 AM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          The terms 'expression' and 'radiance' are themselves what points towards the Son being begotten by the Father.
          . Where do you find that explicitly taught in the word of God?


          There is no contradiction between being eternal and being begotten.
          What is begotten has a beginning at being begotten. What has a beginning is not eternal. Again, where is the holy scripture?
          Last edited by 37818; 03-03-2015, 08:10 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            So based on that logic the Trinity is not Biblical! That the terminology is what is not found in the Bible. The truth that there are three Persons who are each identified to be the one God, is taught in the word of God. That the only-begotten Son preexisted creation is taught in holy scripture. What is not tought in the Bible is the idea that the Son was begotten before His creation.
            I'm with OBP. I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. There is no such thing as "before" the Son, and there is certainly no such thing as the "creation" of the Son. God the Son is not a creature in orthodox (or Orthodox) theology.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              So based on that logic the Trinity is not Biblical! That the terminology is what is not found in the Bible. The truth that there are three Persons who are each identified to be the one God, is taught in the word of God. That the only-begotten Son preexisted creation is taught in holy scripture.
              Yes, that is what "begotten of the Father before all ages" means.
              What is not tought in the Bible is the idea that the Son was begotten before His creation.
              The Bible does not teach that the Son was created. And even if it did, the idea of someone being begotten before being created is a logical impossibility. Who do you think believes that?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                I'm with OBP. I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. There is no such thing as "before" the Son, and there is certainly no such thing as the "creation" of the Son. God the Son is not a creature in orthodox (or Orthodox) theology.
                ???????? The only-begotten Son is the uncreated creator of all things!!! That is not at issue.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  . . . begotten of the Father before all ages. . . .

                  How is this part of that creed not extra Biblical? What Holy Scriptures is it based?


                  Now I agree that the only-begotten Son was not begotten and not made being the one and the same God with His Father, not being the same Persons in being the one and the same God.

                  Reason being that God is not begotten and not made.
                  No where does the word of God teach that the [eternal] only-begotten Son of God the Father was begotten before time. What I am asking is the Biblical bases. Any other arguments are mere interpretations, not the word of God on the matter.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Yes, that is what "begotten of the Father before all ages" means.
                    So then it means the same thing as never being begotten. Right? [Like parallel lines, equal distant, intersect at infinity, same as never intersecting.]
                    The Bible does not teach that the Son was created. And even if it did, the idea of someone being begotten before being created is a logical impossibility. Who do you think believes that?
                    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I believe in the only-begotten Son of God who is the only-begotten of the Father before all ages. Not begotten and not created to be the Son, being always the Son of God. The eternal Son of God.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        John 1:18, and of course John 3:16, say Jesus is the only begotten Son and is himself God as well. My own denomination (Assemblies of God) says of the Godhead:

                        Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.
                        ...so, while I don't know what your church says, 37818, I'm more concerned why you're confused. ..
                        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          So then it means the same thing as never being begotten. Right? [Like parallel lines, equal distant, intersect at infinity, same as never intersecting.]
                          No. The Son is described many times in scripture as the only begotten. Why are you denying scripture?
                          Wikipedia? Seriously? Not even clicking on that. Arius is way too controversial a topic to consider trusting a source that can be edited by anyone.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            No. The Son is described many times in scripture as the only begotten. Why are you denying scripture?
                            The meaning of "only-begotten" and "begotten" are not the same. You are falsely accusing me of denying what I affirm, that the only-begotten Son of God is the eternal Son of God. The fact is no where in the Bible does the word of God teach "begotten of the Father before all ages."
                            Wikipedia? Seriously? Not even clicking on that. Arius is way too controversial a topic to consider trusting a source that can be edited by anyone.
                            Arius held that the Son of God is begotten therefore made. Which the Nicene Creed says "begotten and not made." I think it would better be said, "only-begotten and not made" or better yet, "not begotten and not made."

                            Dr Walter Martin, a different example, held that the eternal Word the second person of the Trinity became the Son.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                              John 1:18, and of course John 3:16, say Jesus is the only begotten Son and is himself God as well. My own denomination (Assemblies of God) says of the Godhead:
                              Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.


                              ...so, while I don't know what your church says, 37818, I'm more concerned why you're confused. ..
                              What does the Bible say? The Biblical use of "begotten" regarding the Son of God has to do with His bodily resurrection. Not His preexistence as the Son.
                              Last edited by 37818; 03-03-2015, 11:06 AM.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The meaning of "only-begotten" and "begotten" are not the same. You are falsely accusing me of denying what I affirm, that the only-begotten Son of God is the eternal Son of God. The fact is no where in the Bible does the word of God teach "begotten of the Father before all ages."
                                Arius held that the Son of God is begotten therefore made. Which the Nicene Creed says "begotten and not made." I think it would better be said, "only-begotten and not made" or better yet, "not begotten and not made."
                                You're really splitting hairs here. And you are denying Heb 5:5. "Only-begotten" is a SUBSET of "begotten." I think I'll take the word of people who actually thought in Greek.
                                Dr Walter Martin, a different example, held that the eternal Word the second person of the Trinity became the Son.
                                Then Dr. Walter Martin is wrong. Becoming implies temporality, which puts him in the same boat as Arius.
                                Last edited by One Bad Pig; 03-03-2015, 11:43 AM.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X