System of the Beast makes perfect sense today

[seanD]

You pick one translation to support your argument. Most translations of the verse in Matthew 24 use "all." Not only that, but probably the majority change "tribes" to "nations," which implies the gentiles. And I wasn't referring to the Rev passage you cited.

[Paprika]

I honestly don't see how a preterist can make a good argument against futurism and it's interpretation of Rev 13 in light of the direction our modern society is heading.

From what I understand of preterism it doesn't forbid a second fulfilment.

[The Remonstrant]

System of the Beast makes perfect sense at any point in the history of the planet. That's the point.

Idealism?

[seanD]

From what I understand of preterism it doesn't forbid a second fulfilment.

That does seem to be a failsafe position to take as a preterist, and I've heard that from one other preterist here, but that isn't the impression I've gotten in my history of discussing eschatology with preterists on this board. The impression they've given me is that preterism is right and futurism is absolutely wrong, so you can probably understand why it's kind of strange to me that they would take such a position after the vehement arguments about the subject I've been in with them in the past, and that's why I approach this subject as an either or based on my past experiences.

[Darfius]

That does seem to be a failsafe position to take as a preterist, and I've heard that from one other preterist here, but that isn't the impression I've gotten in my history of discussing eschatology with preterists on this board. The impression they've given me is that preterism is right and futurism is absolutely wrong, so you can probably understand why it's kind of strange to me that they would take such a position after the vehement arguments about the subject I've been in with them in the past, and that's why I approach this subject as an either or based on my past experiences.

Preterists who do all but call futurists delusional morons will fall back to "the possibility of double fulfillment" when they come across a particularly damning argument, but it's sort of like a cop who writes you a bogus ticket, sneers as he hands it to you and says, "you can always appeal it in court."

Double fulfillment is the only reasonable position if you acknowledge the prophetic events which occurred in the 1st century around the destruction of Jerusalem and the prophetic events taking place in our swiftly globalizing 21st century world. Pride and cowardice are powerful stumbling blocks to overcome.

Just for fun, I'll link to this relevant article about the probable mark of the beast. Be sure to check out the accompanying slide show, which includes a "tattoo" version of the chip for the more squeamish among the damned. A neat solution to the question of whether John the Revelator meant that the mark would be "in" or "on" the recipient.

[seanD]

Good to see you again, man. For some reason, after reading about transhumanism and future technological innovation, I get the feeling it's going to be a lot more sophisticated than an RFID chip. But it could be just that simple.

[KingsGambit]

Out of curiosity: What do futurists generally make of the apparent mathematical correspondence between 616/666 and "Nero"? Is it seen as generally using Nero as a metaphor for the Antichrist in terms that would have been readily apparent to that audience?

(This is a genuine question, not looking to debate here.)

[seanD]

Out of curiosity: What do futurists generally make of the apparent mathematical correspondence between 616/666 and "Nero"? Is it seen as generally using Nero as a metaphor for the Antichrist in terms that would have been readily apparent to that audience?

(This is a genuine question, not looking to debate here.)

Depends on what "correspondence" you're referring to. The only mathematical code I saw was one presented by Gentry, and it was so laughable to me that I was surprised preterists actually make fun of futurists when they attempt to "crack the 666 code" of a future event.

[KingsGambit]

Depends on what "correspondence" you're referring to. The only mathematical code I saw was one presented by Gentry, and it was so laughable to me that I was surprised preterists actually make fun of futurists when they attempt to "crack the 666 code" of a future event.

It's not particularly convoluted; just a transliteration of his name/title (per page 16 of this article here http://98.131.162.170//tynbul/librar...chusPapyri.pdf )

In any event, my understanding was that this was fairly accepted among a majority of biblical scholars, but I'm certainly open to being shown this is not the case.

[seanD]

The thing is, there are a couple of presuppositions that need to go into that interpretation that I don't think hold much weight and makes the interpretation quite a stretch, which I won't get into. The point I was making is that I just think it's no more silly to argue that it's a mystical code for something yet to come (particularly when almost everything in modern society today revolves around numerical values) than for someone to argue it's a mystical code for Nero, yet those who adopt the latter interpretation strangely find the former one humorously absurd.

[KingsGambit]

"Humorously absurd" is hopelessly subjective. I feel the same way about some of the ways modern events/technologies are envisioned in religious manners. What matters is what best accounts for the evidence.

[seanD]

I didn't phrase that right. What I was trying to say is that if it's absurd to think that the mystical numerical code means something in the future, then it's equally absurd to think an ancient Jew used a mystical numerical code to refer to Nero, who didn't do any of the acts described in Rev other than Christian persecution.

[seanD]

Here are two more reasons why I don't think an RFID chip is the mark of the Beast: a) they've already been implanting chips in people and it has nothing to do with buying or selling; b) what's to stop them from forcibly implanting the chip, particularly if they declare you a criminal or officially insane? However, I still personally wouldn't get a chip for religious reasons and based on political principle.

[KingsGambit]

b) what's to stop them from forcibly implanting the chip, particularly if they declare you a criminal or officially insane? However, I still personally wouldn't get a chip for religious reasons and based on political principle.

Couldn't almost anything physical be forcibly implanted? I imagine the implication is that people do choose to adopt the mark rather than having the government physically force it on them.

[seanD]

I honestly don't see how a preterist can make a good argument against futurism and it's interpretation of Rev 13 in light of the direction our modern society is heading.

The Beast is not only compatible with our technology but makes perfect sense in the 21st century. If society becomes completely cashless, not only will it be extremely practical (easily integrating in with our technological awareness which already revolves around digital transactions), but it will virtually cease crime, especially if a digital currency is coupled with a biometric identification.

The problem is, other than the obvious theological one, is that the powers that be will have almost complete control over the populace. For example, say that you do everything with a credit card and have no cash on hand. If you piss off someone who has the power to shut off your credit card, then you're screwed. You might be able to seek legal action if you could find some way to pay, but in the meantime, you have no way to pay for your essentials -- i.e. food, fuel, mortgage/rent, etc.

More examples of things from scripture that make more sense today than in the ancient past:

"Earthquakes in divers places"

Earthquakes were always happening, even before Jesus came to earth. Thus, this fits better in an age where seismological technology is in existence coupled with the technological ability to broadcast each and every earthquake instantly worldwide.

"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars"

Fits better in a world with astronomical technology able to observe "signs" in the sun, moon and stars much more closely.

"Men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world"

This fits better in an age where technology can instantly broadcast simultaneous events happening in the world in an instant.

"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self"

There was always lovers of self, before and during Paul's day. Thus, this fits better in a time where lovers of self will be manifested in an exceptional way, such as the internet and social media.