Why didn't Israel debate like Christians do?

[GoBahnsen]

I was trying to think of an interesting way to title the thread, sorry if it sounds weird, but what I'm getting at is this: did Israel sit around and have debates about God's sovereignty? Or did they discuss freewill versus a bondage of the will? And here is my main question for discussion, did they suggest to one another that it wasn't fair for God to only choose them for His people and not ALL the other nations as well?

I wonder if, when God was judging Egypt, the Israelites had discussions about the love of God and how He wants all nations to be His people too? If there were the sovereignty folks, claiming Israel was His nation of choice, versus those who argued that Egypt was the same in God's eyes as Israel? No real difference... for God is no repector of persons? That God loved all the nations the same, and the Israelites who thought otherwise were full of themselves and prideful?

Do you think the Israelites struggled to wipe out their enemies, thinking God was really in love with those peoples he commanded to be slaughtered?

Yet...with the rise of the Gospel under the New Covenant and God including now the Gentiles, somehow we're to believe that God has stopped having a chosen people? That God has somehow changed from a God who chose a nation for His own to a God without a chosen nation? That the Church, the Israel of God (Gal.) is not God's chosen nation, but rather a nation that has chose itself through freewill?

God chose Israel and I think they liked that (except in their times of apostasy), but now so many of the people of God don't like the fact that God might have chosen them.

It's as if God went from having a people of His choice to a people of their choice. Or could it be true that God doesn't change and He still has a chosen race, the Christian nation, Jew and Gentile, called out by God to be His people? And His people... they find themselves to be, by His sovereign electing grace? What say ye?

[seer]

It's as if God went from having a people of His choice to a people of their choice. Or could it be true that God doesn't change and He still has a chosen race, the Christian nation, Jew and Gentile, called out by God to be His people? And His people... they find themselves to be, by His sovereign electing grace? What say ye?

Well we know that God reached out beyond Israel in those days (Nineveh). And after all, most of God's "people/children" were lost. So either God was insincere when He proclaimed His love for them - or they had free will. Take your pick - I know how I choose...

Free will is discussed at length in Jewish philosophy, firstly as regards God's purpose in creation, and secondly as regards the closely related, resultant, paradox.

The traditional teaching regarding the purpose of creation, particularly as influenced by Jewish mysticism, is that "This world is like a corridor to the World to Come" (Pirkei Avoth 4:21). "Man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God, and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence… The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world..." (Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, Ch.1). Free will is thus required by God's justice, “otherwise, Man would not be given or denied good for actions over which he had no control” [1]. It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely [2]; this is the meaning of the Rabbinic maxim, "All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven" (Talmud, Berachot 33b).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

[GoBahnsen]

It's as if God went from having a people of His choice to a people of their choice. Or could it be true that God doesn't change and He still has a chosen race, the Christian nation, Jew and Gentile, called out by God to be His people? And His people... they find themselves to be, by His sovereign electing grace? What say ye?

Well we know that God reached out beyond Israel in those days (Nineveh). And after all, most of God's "people/children" were lost. So either God was insincere when He proclaimed His love for them - or they had free will. Take your pick - I know how I choose...

I don't know about most of them being lost, certainly Paul makes mention that not all were Israel, but rather that the true Israel has always been by election (Romans 9).

Yes God has always had His eye on all the Nations, but if your view is correct, I think we should have had Nineveh stories on every other page of Scripture. Instead we find God with His chosen people, fighting the enemies of God. We find God glorying in His sovereign saving out a people for Himself. And yes, many were apostates within the physical nation.

Nevertheless, God covenanted with Israel, not Nineveh and if the non Reformed camps have it right...then we ought to have always seen God dealing global. Just trying to get everyone to be His people. What's up with His model to us of a chosen nation? What sense does that make in your "God loves us all the same and hopes we choose Him" view?

[GoBahnsen]

Free will is discussed at length in Jewish philosophy, firstly as regards God's purpose in creation, and secondly as regards the closely related, resultant, paradox.

The traditional teaching regarding the purpose of creation, particularly as influenced by Jewish mysticism, is that "This world is like a corridor to the World to Come" (Pirkei Avoth 4:21). "Man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God, and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence… The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world..." (Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, Mesillat Yesharim, Ch.1). Free will is thus required by God's justice, “otherwise, Man would not be given or denied good for actions over which he had no control” [1]. It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely [2]; this is the meaning of the Rabbinic maxim, "All is in the hands of Heaven except the fear of Heaven" (Talmud, Berachot 33b).

Fine, I don't see a problem here. I don't deny a certain freedom and liberty, but I do affirm with Scripture that God must be the One who brings out the right free choice. To deny that is to reduce election to men electing themselves.

[seer]

I don't know about most of them being lost, certainly Paul makes mention that not all were Israel, but rather that the true Israel has always been by election (Romans 9).

No Gb. I'am speaking of the very people that God proclaimed His love for. That He called His children/people who wre eventually lost. I have proven this in the past - do we really need to go over it again? Was His love sincere bro.? Or was it a half hearted love?

Yes God has always had His eye on all the Nations, but if your view is correct, I think we should have had Nineveh stories on every other page of Scripture. Instead we find God with His chosen people, fighting the enemies of God. We find God glorying is His sovereign saving out a people for Himself. And yes, many were apostates within the physical nation.

Well sure Israel was His chosen nation. But to what end? Why did God choose Abraham? That he may bless "all the families" of the earth. That Israel might be a light to the nations. Which happened through Christ.

Nevertheless, God covenanted with Israel, not Nineveh and if the non Reformed camps have it right...then we ought to have always seen God dealing global. Just trying to get everyone to be His people. What's up with His model to us of a chosen nation? What sense does that make in your "God loves us all the same and hopes we choose Him" view?

Was that generation in Nineveh saved? Of course they were. And do you think all the works of God are contained in Scripture? And remember my point in the other thread. God does not hope for anything. He knows exactly who will freely respond to His overtures - and will get His gospel/message to them...

[Xmansmommy]

GB, was Israel ignorant of the fact that God was going to bless the world through them? Did they not know that God was using them as a light unto the gentiles/world?

[Xmansmommy]

Yes God has always had His eye on all the Nations, but if your view is correct, I think we should have had Nineveh stories on every other page of Scripture. Instead we find God with His chosen people, fighting the enemies of God. We find God glorying in His sovereign saving out a people for Himself. And yes, many were apostates within the physical nation.

I imagine it wasn't so easy to have them be a light unto the world and bless the world when they continuously hardened their heart to God themselves and murdered the prophets that called them to repentance, yes?

[GoBahnsen]

GB, was Israel ignorant of the fact that God was going to bless the world through them? Did they not know that God was using them as a light unto the gentiles/world?

I don't know how much they knew Xmm. Maybe they debated like we do too. We are told that the Gospel going global was a mystery that the prophets weren't aware of. They longed to know the things we now take for granted.

It came as a surprise when God made one new man, both Jew and Greek. Paul was the spokes person for the revelation of all this new measure of God. I think old Israel was a type, a shadow of a bigger, grander people of God in the New Covenant Church.

My point is, God chose the old nation, does He not still choose this new nation of believers?

[A Cup of No]

I don't know how much they knew Xmm. Maybe they debated like we do too. We are told that the Gospel going global was a mystery that the prophets weren't aware of. They longed to know the things we now take for granted.

It came as a surprise when God made one new man, both Jew and Greek. Paul was the spokes person for the revelation of all this new measure of God. I think old Israel was a type, a shadow of a bigger, grander people of God in the New Covenant Church.

My point is, God chose the old nation, does He not still choose this new nation of believers?

Yes, He chose the old nation, but for the purpose of reaching the others,not to just randomly pick people. The old nation failed, now Christ has taken their former vocation upon Himself, as the light of the world and as the way how people learn of the true God.

By the way, where are we told that the gospel going global was a mystery of which the prophets didn't know? The making of the new man which Ephesians describes is definitely a mystery which was revealed, but the OT is replete with passages which speak of how the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. Perhaps the Jews interpreted these passages as a time when the Gentiles would come to know YHWH, but Israel would still be preeminent as God's people. Now that the mystery is revealed and Israel has lost her preeminence, God's people are Jew and Gentile.

Anyway, just my two cents, don't know if they're worth much.

[technomage]

GoBahnsen, reading from the Tanakh, it becomes obvious that the Hebrews viewed both in the ultimate sovereignty of God and the unfettered free will of humanity. It is only us moderns that make a big deal about it--mainly because we over-analyse things.

[Jawa Man]

GoBahnsen, reading from the Tanakh, it becomes obvious that the Hebrews viewed both in the ultimate sovereignty of God and the unfettered free will of humanity. It is only us moderns that make a big deal about it--mainly because we over-analyse things.

Here is a passage from the Apocrypha:

Sirach 15:11-20
11 Do not say, "It was the LORD's doing that I fell away";
for he does not do what he hates.
12 Do not say, "It was he who led me astray";
for he has no need of the sinful.
13 The Lord hates all abominations;
such things are not loved by those who fear him.
14 It was he who created humankind in the beginning,
and he left them in the power of their own free choice.
15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16 He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
17 Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19 his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
20 He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin.

Doesn't this show that the Jews didn't believe in election?

[technomage]

Here is a passage from the Apocrypha:

I would say--even as a non-Christian, but speaking as best as I can from a Christian perspective--that it would be difficult in the extreme to prove a doctrine one way or another from a non-Canonical document, or from what people believed. Heck, for large portions of the history written in the Tanakh, the Jews "believed" it was perfectly acceptable to worship Ba'al and Asherah.

I think it comes right down to Joshua:

Joshua 24:15

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

This clearly shows that people had the choice, with unfettered free will.

[Jawa Man]

I would say--even as a non-Christian, but speaking as best as I can from a Christian perspective--that it would be difficult in the extreme to prove a doctrine one way or another from a non-Canonical document, or from what people believed. Heck, for large portions of the history written in the Tanakh, the Jews "believed" it was perfectly acceptable to worship Ba'al and Asherah.

I think it comes right down to Joshua:

Joshua 24:15

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

This clearly shows that people had the choice, with unfettered free will.

Considering that Sirach itself was big in the Early Church, I don't find it extreme. The Jews accepted it until about 90 AD, and the Christians continued using it in combination with the LXX. The majority of Christendom considers it canonical, and the Jews used to.

[technomage]

Considering that Sirach itself was big in the Early Church, I don't find it extreme.

No, you accept it--and I have no problem with that. But GoBahnsen's coming from a Reformed background that does not: heck, some of the Reformers had serious doubts about James and Revelations.

[geebob]

Yet...with the rise of the Gospel under the New Covenant and God including now the Gentiles, somehow we're to believe that God has stopped having a chosen people?

no one argues this position but newbies. God has a choosen people. He always has and always will and if you don't believe it, you don't read the bible. And if you don't understand how even I, an open theist so strongly insists this, it's because you've been selectively listening as it has been pointed out several times, to you specifically, that God has a choosen people and free will theists believe this and many see this as essential.

Do you think the Israelites struggled to wipe out their enemies, thinking God was really in love with those peoples he commanded to be slaughtered?

the israelites, as free will theists today hold that God judges us for his actions. The people who were wiped out were judged for their actions.

That God has somehow changed from a God who chose a nation for His own to a God without a chosen nation?

the only thing that has changed is the method for joining God's choosen people. Before you had to follow the Mosaic law and be born a Jew (or become Jewish through the works of the mosaic law), now anyone can become a member of the choosen body through faith. (and it never had anything to do with being selected individually before the creation)

I wonder if, when God was judging Egypt, the Israelites had discussions about the love of God and how He wants all nations to be His people too?

Israel wasn't choosen inspite of the other nations. Israel was choosen for benefit of the nations. That was the prophecy given to abraham regarding his choosen status... that the nations of the world would be blessed through his seed.

Any israelite who fretted about God's love for other nations failed to read the multitude of his own scriptures describing God's love for the other nations including the whole basis of the founding of the Jewish people... to be a blessing of all other nations.

Yes God has always had His eye on all the Nations, but if your view is correct, I think we should have had Nineveh stories on every other page of Scripture.

not if people and nations excersize a degree of libertarian free will. infrequent repentence is perfectly coherent with liebertarian freedom.

but scripture is not meant to be an extensive record of how God treated the other nations. There's plenty of it, and a signficant amount that is good (though a lot is negative because the other nations had a good deal of savagery and evil).

It's primary focus is on God's choosen people.

And of course, even Paul said that God has provided of himself to the other nations even if it is more limited than of his choosen people.

acts 17:26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

God chose Israel and I think they liked that (except in their times of apostasy), but now so many of the people of God don't like the fact that God might have chosen them.

What's not to love?