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Thread: A defense of ECREE

  1. #11
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBerman View Post
    That's the real question, isn't it? On what basis does one decide that such claims are "more improbable?" Also, ECREE doesn't address reality itself, but only the ability of a particular method of inquiry to accurately model reality. A method biased against supernatural effects will perforce fail to recognize them, like the Slavic leader who said that as far as he knew, there were no homosexuals in his whole country.
    It is the only methodology we have and it has been very successful as is evidenced by our considerable accumulation of multi-tested, verified knowledge of the natural world. OTOH, there is no consistent methodology for obtaining evidence of the supernatural. Its alleged existence is based entirely on subjective experience and varies widely from person to person and culture to culture. Thus, claims of supernatural/paranormal experiences cannot be substantiated with credible evidence; they are therefore less probable than verifiable claims regarding the natural world.

    As for the benighted Slavic leader, his facts were simply wrong but empirically correctable if he had so chosen.
    Last edited by Tassman; 02-06-2014 at 07:49 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    It is the only methodology we have and it has been very successful as is evidenced by our considerable accumulation of multi-tested, verified knowledge of the natural world.
    The above sentence does not describe ECREE. It describes science. ECREE is itself an extra-scientific claim.

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    The above sentence does not describe ECREE. It describes science. ECREE is itself an extra-scientific claim.
    It was the direct response as to why some claims are more probable than others.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    It was the direct response as to why some claims are more probable than others.
    It was a non-responsive response. You defined science--you did NOT define the basis for deciding when a claim is extraordinary or not.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    It was a non-responsive response. You defined science--you did NOT define the basis for deciding when a claim is extraordinary or not.
    That is why I avoid ECREE. In terms of the evidence used to support the Resurrection and other miraculous claims of different religions there is insufficient evidence to be conclusively true outside those who believe and use what anecdotal evidence there is to justify their faith.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    It was a non-responsive response. You defined science--you did NOT define the basis for deciding when a claim is extraordinary or not.
    In fact I did. A claim is “extraordinary” when it is improbable. And it is “improbable” when unsupported by substantiated, credible evidence. In short, empirically verified scientific evidence is very probably reliable evidence, as demonstrated by the wealth of accumulated scientifically-based knowledge and technology, whereas faith-based subjective claims are not. The former are accessible to everyone with sufficient qualifications; the latter are subjective experiences and only accessible to others via personal testimony.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    In fact I did. A claim is “extraordinary” when it is improbable. And it is “improbable” when unsupported by substantiated, credible evidence.
    All of these definitions are subjective. Unless you have a yardstick that measures "Must be this probable, substantiated, or credible to fly," you still have failed to give anything resembling an objective guide to when ECREE applies.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Personally believe some what differently concerning matters of religious belief, faith, and what the role of methods of evaluating 'Evidence' needed to justify ones belief. Many apologists believe strongly that the evidence for justification of their belief in the Resurrection, and other miraculous events in the Bible is conclusive. I do not believe this so, but it does mean that these beliefs are false. Neither the affirmative nor the negative can be conclusively demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence we have today. All any methods proposed by those who support ECREE would be that there is reasonable doubt based on the evidence to believe that it is conclusively true. There remains a strong elements of faith, tradition, and belief in the accuracy of the word of the church father's, and the apostles.
    I don't think that the lack of Extraordinary Evidence is or claims to be a falsifier of any extraordinary claim, its lack merely means that sufficient evidence for reasonable belief is lacking. Personal testimony of miraculous events is not sufficient evidence for reasonable belief.

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    All of these definitions are subjective. Unless you have a yardstick that measures "Must be this probable, substantiated, or credible to fly," you still have failed to give anything resembling an objective guide to when ECREE applies.
    ECREE applies to claims of a supernatural or paranormal nature, i.e. claims which can’t be empirically verified.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    ECREE applies to claims of a supernatural or paranormal nature, i.e. claims which can’t be empirically verified.
    Oh, so "slug-like aliens live on the surface of neutron stars" is not an extraordinary claim. Thank you for clarifying that.

    Tassman, you are a pseudoskeptic, to use Marcello Truzzi's term. You are not looking for "extraordinary evidence," you reject, ab initio, that the possibility exists at all.

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