Christians Don't Sin

[Soyeong]

No, your phrase is redundant. That wasn't my phrase.

You were the first to use it.

You might wanna ask King David that. He committed a lot of "willful rebellion" (again, your phrase) despite being a lover of God.

He did not live in habitual sin, but was quick to repent of it.

[whag]

You were the first to use it.

You're right. My bad. I was extrapolating from your uses of intention and will in distinguishing between two types of sin. I assumed you equate sin with rebellion.

He did not live in habitual sin, but was quick to repent of it.

So your point about Christians not partaking in "willful sin" would be incorrect? Christians often willfully sin, and that's to be expected, so long as they are quick to repent of it before marrying another wife.

[Soyeong]

You're right. My bad. I was extrapolating from your uses of intention and will in distinguishing between two types of sin. I assumed you equate sin with rebellion.

Intentional sin is rebellion, but again, unintentional rebellion doesn't make a lot of sense.

So your point about Christians not partaking in "willful sin" would be incorrect? Christians often willfully sin, and that's to be expected, so long as they are quick to repent of it before marrying another wife.

Christians are free from our sin nature in the sense that it is no longer our master, not in the sense that we can no longer wilfully sin. Christians do willfully sin, which is a rebellious act, but we can repent of our actions, so that we are not living in rebellion to God. If you are living in rebellion to God, then you can't honestly claim to be a follower of Christ.

To repent is not just saying your sorry, but rather it is admitting that you are wrong, that God is right, and surrendering to His will. If we try to do a better job next time of living in obedience to God through our own effort, we'll just end up making the same mistakes over and over again. Only God can change us by His Spirit working in us to make us more obedient to His will. Planning to repent later misses the whole point of repentance because you are still doing what you think is right instead of surrendering to God's will.

[JimL]

true Christians will continue to sin, but their lives will not reflect a pattern of ongoing sin,

What?

[Christianbookworm]

God instructions for how to do good works/live rightly/practice righteousness/avoid sin exist independently any particular covenant that offers rewards for keeping them and punishments for disobeying him. As Paul said in Romans 7:7a, it's God's instructions that inform us of what sin is. We are saved by grace through faith, not by practicing righteousness, but for the purpose of practicing righteousness.




There's a difference between eating unclean animals and being ceremonially unclean. For instance, someone who was in the same room with a dead body would become ceremonially unclean, but they would not be sinning. They could go home and eat a kosher meal that would become ceremonially unclean when they touched it, but they again would not be sinning. Jesus became ceremonially unclean when he was touched by the woman with bleeding problems in Mark 5, but again that wasn't a sin. However, God instructs that eating unclean animals is a sin.

Guess you never heard of God telling Peter to eat unclean animals in a vision?

[Soyeong]

Guess you never heard of God telling Peter to eat unclean animals in a vision?

Peter's vision indicates that he did not think of Christ's death and resurrection as having done away with the law, but that he was still acting in accordance with it . If God was just telling him was that it was now ok to eat unclean animals, then he wouldn't have been wondering about it's meaning afterwards. Rather, visions have figurative meanings rather than literal meanings, and it was the figurative meaning that Peter was wondering about, which stated later in the chapter:

Acts 10:28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

The law that Peter is referring to here is found nowhere the Torah, but rather it is a man-made oral law that is being overruled while the Torah is being upheld (Leviticus 19:34). Furthermore, nowhere else in the Bible do we take a vision where the meaning is given and reinterpret it to have its literal meaning.

[whag]

Wrong.

You said that our inability to meet God's standard is inbuilt, so you'll have to explain why I'm wrong.

Hence the need for Jesus.

A non-sequiter until you explain how the above works.

[37818]

What?

There is a sense which Christians do not sin. Keeping in mind what mossrose and Christianbookworm have already explained (Romans 7:14-25 and 1 John 1:9-2:2).

". . . Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. . . ." -- 1 John 3:6.

This is not speaking of sinless perfection as some professing Christians profess Rather it is the legal standing of the believer under God's grace. Not license (Romans 3:8) but grace (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-10).

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." -- 1 John 3:4.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." -- James 2:10.

". . . Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. . . ." -- Romans 4:15.
". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ." -- Romans 6:14.
". . . if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ." -- Galatians 5:18.

". . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. . . ." -- Galatians 2:21.

So it is ". . . Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31.

". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ." -- Romans 3:19.

". . . Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. . . ." -- Galatians 3:24, 25.

This is just a brief. Need to read the gospel of John & 1 John. Romans and Galatians.

". . . If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. . . . these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [read an attorney] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." -- 1 John 1:9, 2:1,2.

". . . Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: . . . saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:31, 34.



"

[Christianbookworm]

Peter's vision indicates that he did not think of Christ's death and resurrection as having done away with the law, but that he was still acting in accordance with it . If God was just telling him was that it was now ok to eat unclean animals, then he wouldn't have been wondering about it's meaning afterwards. Rather, visions have figurative meanings rather than literal meanings, and it was the figurative meaning that Peter was wondering about, which stated later in the chapter:

Acts 10:28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

The law that Peter is referring to here is found nowhere the Torah, but rather it is a man-made oral law that is being overruled while the Torah is being upheld (Leviticus 19:34). Furthermore, nowhere else in the Bible do we take a vision where the meaning is given and reinterpret it to have its literal meaning.

You are speaking like the judiazers of Paul's day. Cut. It. Out. Study Galatians and then come back.

[whag]

". . . If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. . . . these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [read an attorney] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." -- 1 John 1:9, 2:1,2.

". . . Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: . . . saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:31, 34.



"

I object to the amount of bolding in this post.

[JonathanL]

There's a difference between eating unclean animals and being ceremonially unclean. For instance, someone who was in the same room with a dead body would become ceremonially unclean, but they would not be sinning. They could go home and eat a kosher meal that would become ceremonially unclean when they touched it, but they again would not be sinning. Jesus became ceremonially unclean when he was touched by the woman with bleeding problems in Mark 5, but again that wasn't a sin. However, God instructs that eating unclean animals is a sin.

My understanding of the Mosaic purity laws (including the kosher laws) is that they were supposed to set Israel apart from the gentile nations around them. To maintain that we non-Jews are required to follow these dietary laws seems to me to be a denial of what Paul says about Christ having "torn down the dividing wall of hostility" (Ephesians 2:14) (which I believe these laws are symbols of). Why would we have to follow dietary laws that tell us that Jews and gentiles are distinct when Christ has already removed the divide that these laws are supposed to signify?


ETA: Changed pagan to gentile.

[Christianbookworm]

My understanding of the Mosaic purity laws (including the kosher laws) is that they were supposed to set Israel apart from the gentile nations around them. To maintain that we non-Jews are required to follow these dietary laws seems to me to be a denial of what Paul says about Christ having "torn down the dividing wall of hostility" (Ephesians 2:14) (which I believe these laws are symbols of). Why would we have to follow dietary laws that tell us that Jews and gentiles are distinct when Christ has already removed the divide that these laws are supposed to signify?


ETA: Changed pagan to gentile.

Meaning that we have a JUDIAZER in our midst!

[JonathanL]

There is also the issue of Acts 15, where the council of Jerusalem decided that the only dietary restrictions the gentile Christians had to observe were that we should avoid meat offered to pagan idols, and eating blood or any animal that has been strangled. Demand anything stricter than that and you're essentially contradicting what the Holy Spirit via the Christian church established as a rule for gentile Christians.

[JimL]

". . . If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. . . . these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [read an attorney] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." -- 1 John 1:9, 2:1,2.

". . . Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: . . . saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- Jeremiah 31:31, 34.



"

The above is replete with contradictions. "Christians can't sin because they are not under the law" "But if a Christian should sin he has an advocate to attain forgiveness." Both can't be true!

[Bill the Cat]

You said that our inability to meet God's standard is inbuilt, so you'll have to explain why I'm wrong.

Because we are the offspring of Adam, and we inherit his propensity to sin, just as God knew would happen.

A non-sequiter until you explain how the above works.

Hence the need for Jesus.