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Christians Don't Sin

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    If man-flesh is illusory, then is not breathing also illusory?
    Good catch. All false statements will self-refute.
    * Sin after repent? Ez. 18:19-32
    * Paul w/o sin?- Philp 3:4-6
    * Reqs? ALL!- Rich ruler (Mat 19:16-17-20-22, Lk 18:18-20-21-23); Treasure/Pearl (Mat 13:44-46), Lk 14:26 ...
    * Consequences after forgiveness?- Mat 18:23-27-34
    * Explicit- I Jn 3:3-5-6-8 (destroy works) - 9-10, 18, 22, 24
    * If sin is inherent in the flesh- I Jn 4:1-3
    * Does God judge by faith or works?- Two sons (Mat 21:28-29-31); Jesus' words (Mat 7:12-13-14-15-20-21-22-23-24-26-27)
    * Excuses-- Lk 14:15-18-20-24

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Michael View Post
      We can die and be resurrected now, spiritually, having that propensity removed here, in this world; we don't have to wait for the physical death. (Titus 2:12)
      Titus 2:12 says that we are in training, not already perfected. If we were already perfected, we would not need training. And while I agree that in baptism we are to die to our old self and are raised to walk in newness of life, Paul's letters demonstrate amply that baptism does not make one automagically sinless.
      Partially disagreed, due to my statement just above; we can die and resurrect here, in this world. Separate perfection and becoming more like Christ. There are two definitions of "perfect"--the biblical and the commonplace. Biblical perfection (short version), is dying to old self and resurrecting to the new, in the likeness of Christ, with Christ's heart to do all good. The "becoming" part is only growing in the knowledge of what this entails, not in the consummation(?) of it (meaning that the whole heart is in from the beginning, no going back, no doing what one knows to be wrong, but ever-learning what else to live up to and do).

      They claim that sinlessness is bondage, but they are under bondage to sin. Jesus came to set the captives free and free indeed! How is being FREED from sin bondage? Now, of course if one's heart is really seeking after sin and only SAYING that it is seeking after Christ, then Laws are an unbearable burden to such evil hearts, but if one truly seeks after Christ and His righteousness, then that man will HATE sin and LOVE to be set free FROM it!
      Who claims that sinlessness is bondage? And who says that laws are an "unbearable burden"? I long to be free from sin; however, the best I can do is, after I fall down, get back up.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Titus 2:12 says that we are in training, not already perfected. If we were already perfected, we would not need training. And while I agree that in baptism we are to die to our old self and are raised to walk in newness of life, Paul's letters demonstrate amply that baptism does not make one automagically sinless.
        I don't know what version you're reading, but KJV says, "12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
        I'm going to go with "denying" is a current state, and not a future state; we can only be "denying" now, because, in the future, we will deny. And, if denying, then not committing, otherwise, we would not be denying, but only "trying" (i.e. half-heartedness).

        Furthermore, "live" is also what we DO (as opposed to will do), and Titus not only says we should LIVE ... RIGHTEOUSLY and GODLY, but also that we should DO so IN THIS PRESENT WORLD, NOT in some distant, vacuous future, and definitely not something that occurs AFTER this present world. What occurs AFTER this present world is the judgement, not the "second chance." Besides, if one won't live it here, then one wouldn't truly be converted at a last second chance anyhow, but rather only be hoping to get out of his sentence/judgement; i.e. it would be insincere, but only looking to save one's hide, which is the way one lived to start with, which brought them to the judgement unprepared to start with.

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Who claims that sinlessness is bondage? And who says that laws are an "unbearable burden"? I long to be free from sin; however, the best I can do is, after I fall down, get back up.
        It is definitely better to get back up after you fall down, but better still to stop falling down. Christ is not weak, incomplete, flawed; He has not failed. He has dominion over sin, flesh, and death; why would anyone in their right mind think that He can't conquer them, and that they overpower and conquer Him? He that is in you is greater than He that is in the world. So, are you overcoming the world by Christ in you (i.e. is Christ overcoming the world through/with/etc. you by Christ in you), or is the world overcoming Christ in you (Is that even possible, if Christ is God and therefore all-powerful?), or is Christ just not in you and you have erred (having religion but not truly Christ)?

        I have found it VERY common for people to claim that living without sin is "bondage" when told that they have to live without sin. They make this claim because they are desperate to not have to be responsible, to "get away with it," as it were; they cry that requiring sinless living is putting a bondage on them, to "have" to follow the Laws of God. Technically, they might be considered to be correct, however, only because as long as they are unregenerate and do not love God with their WHOLE heart, it does seem a great bondage to have to live without sin--one that is incredibly difficult (externally), and apparently impossible, internally. However, the true reason for this, is because they are ALREADY under bondage, to sin, their MASTER.
        • Problem 1: How can they be freed by Christ, if they are still under bondage? He whom Christ has set free, is free INDEED. Unless Christ has failed, is weak, flawed, etc. The Jewish religious hypocrites fought Jesus on this. They declared, indignantly and self-righteously, that they were under bondage to nobody. However, JESUS told them that we are under bondage to whatever we do; you are EITHER under bondage to the flesh and the world, to sin unto death, or unto righteousness and godliness unto life in Christ. (Good/bad water from the same fountain; light/dark mixing, etc.; "sinning Christians" has Christ communing with Belial--what would you all call such a claim as Christ communing with Belial?)
        • Problem 2: As you pointed out, if the people claiming that sinlessness is bondage were even remotely sincere, then they wouldn't see it as bondage, but rather as freedom. So, again, refer to explanations of Problem 1 above; IF Christ has set you free, then how are you still under bondage to sin or flesh or anything else? And vice versa, if you are still under bondage to sin, then how has Christ set you free? Did He fail? CAN He not do it?

        Ez. 18:19-23
        19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept ALL my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live .
        20 The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
        21 But if the wicked will turn from ALL his sins that he hath committED, and keep ALL my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die .
        22 All his transgressions that he hath committed , they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live .
        23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

        Moreso, regarding this issue, of claiming to be saved while yet sinning, continue in Ezekiel:
        Ez. 18:24-32
        24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live ? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin [yes, sin, NOT sinS] that he hath sinned , in them shall he die [That's right, NO such thing as sinning and saved at the same time!! Keep reading].
        25 Yet ye say , The way of the Lord is not equal . Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal ? are not your ways unequal ?
        26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die .
        27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed , and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive .
        28 Because he considereth , and turneth away from[/B] ALL his transgressions that he hath committed , he shall surely live , he shall not die .
        29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal . O house of Israel, are not my ways equal ? are not your ways unequal ?
        30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent , and turn [yourselves] from ALL your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. {yourselves: or, others}
        31 Cast away from you ALL your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed ; and make you a new HEART and a new spirit: for why will ye die , O house of Israel?
        32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth , saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. {yourselves: or, others}

        This is explicit and clear, as it almost always is. It is only when one starts with the presupposition of inability to stop sinning, that one has to create rescuing devices--rewriting virtually all of the Bible, changing tenses of verbs, changing definitions of words, changing out the words themselves--whatever it takes to justify living in sin and feeling like one is "getting away with it." If you think that you don't want to get away with it, then why haven't you stopped? Is it too much work? Where is your love? Is it too much time? Where is your love? Will it cost you too much "things" (money, etc.) in this world? Where is your love? WHO do you love?

        I heard a preacher say that he was having the same discussion with God ("I don't want to sin, but can't quit.") but that God told him, that he didn't quit his sin because he loved his sin. He said, "Not so, Lord. I love you; I hate sin." But God told him, that if he loved God, and hated sin, he would stop because he would NO LONGER WANT TO SIN.

        Another very religious man keeps attempting to have long, pointless discussions with me about Christ. He has gone so far as to claim that, through Christ he has died to himself and rose in newness of life where all things are made new and his old man died and no longer is, etc. etc. He then proceeded to explain that, although his old man is DEAD, he still mostly does what the old man says/thinks/wants/etc. What exactly are y'all defining "death" and "dead" to mean--"weak?" Because even that is not true to what most false-professing people DO. He then immediately goes back to watching the filth/garbage on tv and his sports programs, to the neglect of his responsibilities to his family and God. Where on earth is the "try" that people are claiming? How hard is it to "try" when all you have to do is HIT THE POWER BUTTON and PICK UP YOUR BIBLE and PRAY? The REAL problem is a HEART problem; people will just not give it ALL to God, just like the rich young ruler (who, btw, claimed to live sinlessly, and who Christ did not correct but rather said that he did well! But his problem, like all who do sin, was that he was unwilling to give God his ALL--his WHOLE heart!) THEREIN lies the sum of the matter; you can't quit your sin, because God is not on your throne of your heart, but rather self is on your throne.

        Sin is not unavoidable. What are you doing to AVOID it? If you have circumstances still arise, what CHOICES do you make to not sin?
        Sin is ALWAYS a choice!
        • We either choose at the very time of sin TO sin [thereby counting God to be less valuable/worthy/REAL than the perceived false-value the sin will "acquire" for us; where then is this alleged LOVE for God, this alleged FAITH in Him? Would you still have done it, if He was PHYSICALLY standing right next to you? Then, is He real--really, really, really REAL? And DO you really, really, really CARE what He wants (LOVE Him)?]
        • Or we chose sin in the past, have automated sinful responses, and have FAILED to CARE ENOUGH to TAKE ACTION to de-automate them or automate CHRIST-LIKE responses. Again, HOW MUCH DOES GOD MATTER? When will one make the time to take God off the back-burner and make Him a priority, to take care of these issues? Or is it just too easy to merely make quick professions and EXCUSES?
        Last edited by Michael; 11-08-2015, 11:38 PM.
        * Sin after repent? Ez. 18:19-32
        * Paul w/o sin?- Philp 3:4-6
        * Reqs? ALL!- Rich ruler (Mat 19:16-17-20-22, Lk 18:18-20-21-23); Treasure/Pearl (Mat 13:44-46), Lk 14:26 ...
        * Consequences after forgiveness?- Mat 18:23-27-34
        * Explicit- I Jn 3:3-5-6-8 (destroy works) - 9-10, 18, 22, 24
        * If sin is inherent in the flesh- I Jn 4:1-3
        * Does God judge by faith or works?- Two sons (Mat 21:28-29-31); Jesus' words (Mat 7:12-13-14-15-20-21-22-23-24-26-27)
        * Excuses-- Lk 14:15-18-20-24

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