Originally posted by tabibito
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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What are the essentials of the genuine Christian faith?
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The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostI guessed what that may mean . . . "But they do make the Christian experience less so." I think that's probably wrong. I remain puzzled what it means.
Matthew 6:33]Seek first the kingdom of Heaven and HIS righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
James 4:3You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostRomans 8:13For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Colossians 3:5Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
Ephesians 5:5For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ezekiel 18:4“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:21“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.
Where does that leave the one who intends to sin? Or the one who does not commit to doing all that God requires?
Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Luke 6:46“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?
So to return to your earlier question - outcomes hinge on the firm commitment to turn away from self and toward God. Temporary failures to hold to that commitment may occur from time to time (and with decreasing frequency), but are not a determining factor - provided that they are indeed temporary and no more than failures. But they do exact a heavy toll on the Christian experience.
So for the Christian who is earnestly and anxiously trying to do good but continually failing what should they do? Should they keep trying regardless of success? And if temporary failures don't count against a Christian, what happens if they die while struggling with something that is a temporary failure?Last edited by Paula; 10-04-2015, 07:33 PM.
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We are dependent on God keeping faith, being true to his word, at all times. The "what would happen ifs" posit that God will find it convenient to not keep his word in certain circumstances. Were God willing that some should die, maybe that kind of hypothetical issue could be addressed.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWe are dependent on God keeping faith, being true to his word, at all times. The "what would happen ifs" posit that God will find it convenient to not keep his word in certain circumstances. Were God willing that some should die, maybe that kind of hypothetical issue could be addressed.Last edited by Paula; 10-18-2015, 07:57 PM.
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The Biblical declaration is: with due diligence, under the auspices of the Holy Spirit, the Christian will achieve the ability to live without sinning. The question may arise whether the scriptures are fallible, but there is no question about what they actually declare. The essential teaching is summed up in the beatitudes - particularly:Matthew 5:6CompareBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.Matthew 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God1 John 3:6and further to that, the commandWhoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.Matthew 6:33“But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
SEEK (BDAG)ἐκζητέω fut. ἐκζητήσω; 1 aor. ἐξεζήτησα. Pass.: 1 fut. ἐκζητηθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐξεζητήθην; pf. pass. ptc. ἐξεζητημένα Ps 110, 2. (Ael. Aristid. 38 p. 726 D.; ins, pap, LXX; En 104:7; TestAsh; Just., D. 95, 4).
to exert effort to find out or learn someth., seek out, search for w. acc. of pers. or thing sought (POxy 1465, 11 [I B.C.] τοὺς αἰτίους; LXX; EpArist 24) τὶ (Aelian, NA 15, 1 p. 356, 24; TestAsh 5:4) Hb 12:17; B 21:8. ἐ. τὰ δυνάμενα ἡμᾶς σῴζειν seek out the things that can save us 4:1. τὰ δικαιώματα κυρίου seek out the Lord’s requirements 2:1. κρίσιν search for justice 1 Cl 8:4 (Is 1:17). τὰ εὐάρεστα 35:5. τόπον 1 Cl 14:5 (Ps 36:36). τὰ πρόσωπα τῶν ἁγίων seek the faces of the saints i.e. associate w. them, attend their meetings D 4:2; B 19:10. τινά: (παρθένους) GJs 10:1. ἐ. τὸν κύριον seek the Lord to serve him (Ps 33:5; 68:33; Dt 4:29 al.) Ac 15:17 (Am 9:12); cp. Ro 3:11 (Ps 13:2; 52:3); Hb 11:6; 1 Cl 13:1.—περί τινος seek for someth. 1 Pt 1:10 (w. ἐξεραυνάω as 1 Macc 9:26 A). Foll. by an indirect question instead of an obj. B 10:4; 21:6. Abs. (BGU 1141, 41 [14 B.C.]; IGR IV, 834, 5) ἐ. ἐπιμελῶς search carefully Hv 3, 3, 5.
to look for someth. with a view to securing it, desire, seek to get (1 Macc 7:12) ἐ. τι ἐκ τ. χειρῶν τινος B 2:5 (Is 1:12).
Originally posted by Paula View PostAnd I certainly agree that God is faithful. Nevertheless, Christians still seem to commit sins throughout their lives. So it doesn't necessarily follow that God being faithful entails moral perfection before death because if it did then it would likely be normative.Last edited by tabibito; 10-18-2015, 09:29 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYes, it would be normative, and with it the conferred authority to perform miracles. Though to be sure, miracles are more dependent on the promotion of the true gospel than on the believer's not sinning.
I may have misunderstood but are you also saying that performing miracles (i.e. healing, prophecy, etc) is also normative?
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostI'm missing the context of the OP so at the risk of being totally off base, I'll respond...
What I view as the essentials are:
- God exists as a Trinity
- He is Creator and Sustainer of all that is seen and unseen.
- Jesus Christ was incarnate as fully God and fully man.
- Jesus Christ paid for my sins by His sacrifice on the cross (aka Substitutionary Atonement)
- On the third day, He was bodily Resurrected from grave. He later ascended to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.
- The Bible is God's revelation to man. It is inerrant in the original manuscripts. It is His only written revelation and needs no addition.
I think that's all I would consider essential.Bible Questions on The Theology QA.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7
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That would be on the lines of heresy. Jesus was only deity before incarnation & put on flesh when he came to earth at the moment of conception.Bible Questions on The Theology QA.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7
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I believe it to be essential to be a member of the Catholic Church, one way or the other, and thereby to take on oneself everything that is expected of one to be a member in ones particular situation. Since the Church is a mystery, the membership itself is mysterious. I know how this works out if one become a visible member, and you promise to believe, teach and confess anything the Church believes, teaches or confesses.
And that is more than what can be put on a napkin. It is something you have to enter into, and be a part of, not merely an exercise in scoring the right points on a dogmatic checklist.
However if anyone was to put a gun to my head, I'd use the Credo.
"Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
Factórem cæli et terræ,
Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sǽcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
Descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
Passus, et sepúltus est,
Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
Cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
Qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Et expécto resurrectiónem mortuórum,
Et vitam ventúri sǽculi. Amen"
"I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living
and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI believe it to be essential to be a member of the Catholic Church, one way or the other, and thereby to take on oneself everything that is expected of one to be a member in ones particular situation. Since the Church is a mystery, the membership itself is mysterious. I know how this works out if one become a visible member, and you promise to believe, teach and confess anything the Church believes, teaches or confesses.
And that is more than what can be put on a napkin. It is something you have to enter into, and be a part of, not merely an exercise in scoring the right points on a dogmatic checklist.
However if anyone was to put a gun to my head, I'd use the Credo.
"Credo in unum Deum,
Patrem omnipoténtem,
Factórem cæli et terræ,
Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sǽcula.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
Descéndit de cælis.
Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
Passus, et sepúltus est,
Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
Cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
Qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Et expécto resurrectiónem mortuórum,
Et vitam ventúri sǽculi. Amen"
"I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living
and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI could go with that, if you dropped the Filióque bit.
As for the filioque that is not for me to do anything about.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI pray that the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic will become one again someday. Though I have no idea how to pull it off... I feel that mystically we already are somehow.
As for the filioque that is not for me to do anything about.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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EO will probably unite with the catholic church soon....
Unfortunately the catholic church has changed so radically & has gone to the point where its systematically entrapping its members evangelicals can't join. The counter reformation proved that the RCC would never reform, so evangelicals,protestants, & reformers will never unite with the RCC.Bible Questions on The Theology QA.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matthew" 7:7
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Originally posted by flowers92 View PostEO will probably unite with the catholic church soon....
Unfortunately the catholic church has changed so radically & has gone to the point where its systematically entrapping its members evangelicals can't join. The counter reformation proved that the RCC would never reform, so evangelicals,protestants, & reformers will never unite with the RCC.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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