Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[Bill the Cat]

1) Bill the Cat writing on the sign of Jonah "It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection" is not true because Jonah miracle is his survival of death everytime Jonah faced death.

No it wasn't. It was being released from the fish after 3 days. Jesus Himself explained what it was a mere few words after saying it. So, turn to the next page in your Muslim script and try again...

Jonah was not resurrected because Jonah did not die at all before coming out from the fish.

That was not Jesus' point. He SPECIFICALLY said that He would be buried for 3 days, just as Jonah was in the fish for 3 days. That is the ONLY correlation He was drawing.

In fact, Jonah was praying to God from inside the fish for three days and nights as per Jonah 1:17 - 2:1. Therefore, Jonah never experienced death in the fish because "Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?" according to Psalm 6:5.

Jesus was not mentioning that Jonah died. Only that He was in the fish for 3 days, and that would be how long He would be in the grave.

By the way, the "sign" in Matthew 16:4 is rendered either "miracle" or "miraclous sign" in several Bible versions which both mean the same as per follows Matthew 16:4;

* GOOD NEWS TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah." So he left them and went away.


** NEW INTERNATIONAL READER VERSION Matthew 16:4:

An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

*** New LIVING TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

Those are not literal translations of the Bible. But, please keep trying. Your stunning ignorance gives me a good laugh.

2) Rogue06 quoting Revelation 1:17-18 is not historical evidence because this was said in a vision or dream.

So, Jesus gets to lie in visions?

We are debating the topic based on historical basis. For example, had Jesus been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to even one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the 40 days before his ascention because

How do you know He didn't?

1 Cor 15:6 ESV
Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

Prove that none of them were his killers.

(1) Jesus promised these Jews of rising after three days ans nights like Jonah as per Matthew 12:38-40

Well, the fish vomited Jonah out onto the land (Jon 2:10), so if we are sticking with literal parallels, did the tomb come to life and vomit Jesus up?

and (2) because Jesus came to the sinners not to the righteous as per Jesus own words in Mark 2:17.

That was Jesus insulting the Pharisees who THOUGHT they were righteous. David declared that NONE are righteous, so that means Jesus came for everyone.

But the reality he limited his appearences in his flesh and bones to the disciples, the women and the 500 brethren.

And you have not a single shred of proof that one of those 500 was not someone who crucified Him.

Quoting non eyewitnesses such as the disciples cannot be accepted unless are verified against the eyewitesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) reactions in words and deeds as well as all behaviours of Jesus himself before ascending.

Pilate was surprised that Jesus had died. He would not have been surprised at Jesus death had Jesus not died. The women tended to Jesus' dead body in the tomb. All verified He was dead. Jesus Himself said He would die. The Gospels report He died. He died. Period.

[37818]

The Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead. And God told Moses in the Law saying regarding the Prophet Jesus, ". . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him." -- Deuteronomy 18:19. So when the Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead it was because God said so (John 7:16). And those who refuse to hear it, God requires this to be believed of them.

[Christianbookworm]

What would be the point of Jesus showing up to scare the tunics off the religious leaders/Sanhedrin anyway? They'd probably try to kill Him again. It wouldn't work, but Jesus probably isn't interested in having rocks and arrows bounce off of Him like a cartoon character!

[Sparko]

The Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead. And God told Moses in the Law saying regarding the Prophet Jesus, ". . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him." -- Deuteronomy 18:19. So when the Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead it was because God said so (John 7:16). And those who refuse to hear it, God requires this to be believed of them.

Yep. Either the muslims have to believe that Jesus was a liar and therefore a false prophet, or that he was telling the truth and was dead and resurrected.

[Christianbookworm]

Jesus either is Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. I believe the evidence points to Lord. No mere human could pull off telling a storm to stop and it does!

[Sparko]

Luke 24:46 He [Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

So either Jesus was a liar and a false prophet, or he was telling the truth and rose from the dead.

[Same Hakeem]

Bill the Cat writing " He SPECIFICALLY said that He would be buried for 3 days, just as Jonah was in the fish for 3 days. That is the ONLY correlation He was drawing" is not true because the word 'sign' in Matthew 16:4 is rendered "miracle" or " miraclous sign" by Christian Bibles such as NIVR, NLT, and GNT. Between you and these several Christian Bible versions mentioned above, I go with the Christian Bible versions.

In anyway, Jesus was not in the tomb for three days and night as Matthew 12:40 provides. Even the Jews agree that he did not fulfill his prophecy as follows:

" Question: Did Jesus fulfill his prediction that he would be buried for three days and three nights and then be resurrected?

Answer: The author of Matthew quotes Jesus as saying to the scribes and Pharisees: “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40; cf. Jonah 2:1 [1:17 in some versions]. This reference to Jonah supposedly foreshadows the burial and the resurrection of Jesus. Yet there is an essential difference between what occurred to Jonah and Matthew’s resurrection account. This difference destroys Matthew’s attempt at an analogy. According to all four Gospels, the crucifixion took place on a Friday and the resurrection on the following Sunday. From this it would seem that Jesus was buried for three days (Friday, Saturday, Sunday). Thus, Luke writes that according to prophecy, Jesus was to rise on the third day: “Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and he said to them: ‘Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise from the dead the third day‘” (Luke 24:45, 46; see also Matthew 16:21; Mark 8:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 18:33). While it is true that according to Jewish law part of the day is equivalent to a full day, Matthew’s Jesus promised to be buried specifically for three days and three nights. By the use of the phrase “three days and three nights,” Matthew’s Jesus indicated that he expected to be buried for three consecutive periods between dawn and dark (day) and dark and dawn (night), or approximately seventy-two hours. The Scriptures employ the phrase “three days” in a more general sense than that expressed by “three days and three nights.” For example, “three days” does not necessarily include the period of day or night at either the beginning or end of the total time to be indicated. Therefore, when the phrase “three days” is meant to specifically include three days and three nights, and this is not evident from the text, it must be stated as such: “. . . neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . .” (Esther 4:16). However, when the phrase “three days and three nights” is stated, it includes either all three days and all three nights or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night at the beginning or end of the entire period, but never of a full segment of day or night out of twenty-four hours (1 Samuel 30:11-13). Although Jesus did not have to be buried exactly seventy-two hours, he did have to be buried at least on parts of three days and three nights. Jesus died on a Friday at the ninth hour, which corresponds to about 3 P.M. The claim is made that Jesus rose three days later, on a Sunday. This would mean that he was buried during the daylight hours of three different days. If this was true, he was buried for only two nights."

Source: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...-days-in-tomb/

2. The answer to your request " How do you know He didn't?" lies in the fact that in the New Testament his appeatences in his flesh and bones before his ascention were limited to the disciples, 500 brethren and the women. Had he appeared to his alleged killers of the Jews, the writers of the New Testament would surely mentioned such appearence (s) in support of his alleged resurrection.

3. The answer to your request " Prove that none of them were his killers" is evident in the word "brethren" or "brothers" in 1Corinthians 15:6
4. The answer to your question " Well, the fish vomited Jonah out onto the land (Jon 2:10), so if we are sticking with literal parallels, did the tomb come to life and vomit Jesus up?" lies in the fact that Jesus promised to do the miracle of Jonah and the miracle of Jonah is surviving death miraclously every time he faced it till he came out from the fish.

5. You said " David declared that NONE are righteous, so that means Jesus came for everyone." If so and had Jesus been dead and risen immortally for everyone, why did he not appear once to one of his alleged killers because Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Matthew 15:24.

6. Saying " And you have not a single shred of proof that one of those 500 was not someone who crucified Him" is not true because 1 Corinthians 15:6 desribes the 500 as brothers or brethren.

7. Saying " Pilate was surprised that Jesus had died" is not true because NIV renders 15:44 "Pilate was surprised to HEAR that he died" and KJV " Pilate marvelled if he died already"

*8. "He would not have been surprised at Jesus death had Jesus not died" is not true because a typical crucifxion lasts for days according to Christian commentries on Mark 15:44 at biblehub.com, but Jesus was only 9 hours on the cross; therefore, Pilate was surprised to hear that he died. In addition, Pilate doubted his alleged death as Pilate asked for confirmation IF he was dead also according to Mark 15:44.

9.* Saying "The women tended to Jesus' dead body in the tomb" is not true because had Jesus been dead when the women saw where his body laid in Luke 23:55, the greek word (Ptoma) used always to describe dead body SHOULD have been used.

10. Saying " All verified He was dead" is not true because the only one who verified Jesus body if alive or dead is the centurion according to John 19:34 by spear piercing his side but the problem is that it says in John 19:34 that " blood and water gushed out" proving that his heart is still pumbing. So he was alive because he was on the cross for only 9 hours; however; a typical crucifxion takes days. Add to that, that his legs were not broken whereas the legs of the two thieves were broken to hasten their death.

11. Saying "Jesus Himself said He would die" is true and after he said he would die, he prayed more earnestly to be saved from death in Luke 22:44.

12. Saying "The Gospels report He died" is a statement that needs to be clarified because the Gospels uses "breathe his last" or "crucified". Please point out verses in the Gospels where the Gospels report he died.

[Same Hakeem]

Luke 24:46 He [Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Sparko saying "So either Jesus was a liar and a false prophet, or he was telling the truth and rose from the dead" is not true according to Luke 24:46 that he SUFFERED (not died). Hence, his rise is not resurrection as evidenced by the trial accounts and his behaviours after his trial.*

[Sparko]

Luke 24:46 He [Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Sparko saying "So either Jesus was a liar and a false prophet, or he was telling the truth and rose from the dead" is not true according to Luke 24:46 that he SUFFERED (not died). Hence, his rise is not resurrection as evidenced by the trial accounts and his behaviours after his trial.*

"rise from the DEAD"

your contortions are impressive but in vain, Hakeem. The bible says Jesus died over and over and rose from the Dead. That is the whole point of the gospels. The good news that Jesus died and was resurrected, and if we follow him, we will be forgive of our sins and will be resurrected one day too.

That includes you Hakeem, if you stop fighting the Holy Spirit and come to see Jesus as your Savior.

They were not stupid back then Hakeem. they would not have mistakenly thought he was dead. Jesus was beaten to the bone with a whip before he was crucified. He was stabbed by a soldier to make sure he was dead before they took him down. He was wrapped in cloth and 75 pounds of spices and ointments. He would have suffocated if he were not already dead. And then he was laid in a cold tomb and sealed in. Beaten, stabbed, suffocated. He would not have survived if he were alive. God wanted him to die and be a sacrifice for all of mankind.

Why would God even give him that assignment if he was not going to go through with it? You believe that the prophesy was real, that Jesus was to be sacrificed and it was God's will, but then God saved Jesus because he prayed. Yet that means that God was wrong to want to sacrifice Jesus in the first place. You are saying that God didn't know what he was doing and that Jesus talked him out of his plan. That's blasphemy. You are calling God fallible and wrong.

So either God or Jesus is a liar.

[Same Hakeem]

Sparko quoting the phrase "rise from the DEAD" does not prove Jesus was resurrected because Jesus denied the claim of his death in Luke 24:46 by using the particular word of suffering (not death or died). Suffering never means death unless the word death comes right after suffer (i.e. suffer death).

Saying "The bible says Jesus died over and over and rose from the Dead" needs to be clarified that the Bible reports how people viewed what Jesus experienced; certain were eye witnesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) while certain others were not eyewitnesses.

Saying "Jesus was beaten to the bone with a whip before he was crucified" does not make Jesus dead because Jesus was on the cross for 9 hours whereas the victim of crucifixion stays commonly for days before he expires. Hence, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mar 15:44. Also Pilate doubted the news that he died so Pilate asked for confirmation in also Mark 15:44.

Saying "He was stabbed by a soldier to make sure he was dead before they took him down" is wrong because John 19:34 says "pierce" and* John 19:34 says blood and water gushed out proving his heart was still functioning because he was on cross for 9 hours which is not killing because typical crucifixion lasts for three days.

The response to "He was wrapped in cloth and 75 pounds of spices and ointments. He would have suffocated if he were not already dead. And then he was laid in a cold tomb and sealed in. Beaten, stabbed, suffocated. He would not have survived if he were alive" lies in fact that Jesus did not see corruption for three days in the tomb according Acts 13:37. Had he been dead, his body should decayed because " it is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42. Had Jesus been dead and risen immortally, Jesus SHOULD have appeared even once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews because he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Matthew 15:24 and also he promised them to do for them the miracle of Jonah in Matthew 16:4.*

Saying" You believe that the prophesy was real, that Jesus was to be sacrificed and it was God's will, but then God saved Jesus because he prayed. Yet that means that God was wrong to want to sacrifice Jesus in the first place" needs to be clarified because as I said earlier Jonah in Jonah 3:4* said "Ninevah will be overthrown in forty days" but it did not happen because they repented. So it was in the case of Jesus, Jesus said he would die but he later prayed more earnestly to be saved in Luke 22:44 and he was rescued because Jesus said " ask and it will be given" in Matthew 7:7.*

[Sparko]

Sparko quoting the phrase "rise from the DEAD" does not prove Jesus was resurrected because Jesus denied the claim of his death in Luke 24:46 by using the particular word of suffering (not death or died). Suffering never means death unless the word death comes right after suffer (i.e. suffer death).

That doesn't even make sense Hakeem. Jesus said he would rise from the DEAD. He could not do that unless he was DEAD. If he did not rise from the dead then it makes him a liar and a false prophet. Plain and simple.

Saying "The bible says Jesus died over and over and rose from the Dead" needs to be clarified that the Bible reports how people viewed what Jesus experienced; certain were eye witnesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) while certain others were not eyewitnesses.

It says he was dead and raised back to life. Your koran says that the bible and gospels are god inspired scriptures so they cannot be wrong nor can the words of God be changed.

3.3 He has revealed this Book to you, setting forth the truth and confirming the earlier Books, and earlier He revealed the Torah and Gospel
3.4 for the guidance of mankind; and He has also revealed the Criterion (to distinguish truth from falsehood). A severe chastisement lies in store for those who deny the signs of Allah. Allah is All-Mighty; He is the Lord of Retribution.

18.27 (O Prophet), recite to them from the Book of your Lord what has been revealed to you for none may change His words; (and were you to make any change in His words) you will find no refuge from Him.

7.157 [To-day this mercy is for] those who follow the ummi Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel with them. He enjoins upon them what is good and forbids them what is evil. He makes the clean things lawful to them and prohibits all corrupt things, and removes from them their burdens and the shackles that were upon them. So those who believe in him and assist him, and succour him and follow the Light which has been sent down with him, it is they who shall prosper.

5.68 Say to them: 'People of the Book! You have no solid ground to stand on unless you establish the Torah and the Gospel and all that had been revealed to you from your Lord. Indeed the message revealed to you from your Lord will aggravate insurgence and unbelief in many of them. So do not grieve for those who disbelieve.

10.94 Now, if you are in doubt concerning what We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Book before you. It is the truth that has come to you from your Lord, so do never become one of those who doubt,

Saying "Jesus was beaten to the bone with a whip before he was crucified" does not make Jesus dead because Jesus was on the cross for 9 hours whereas the victim of crucifixion stays commonly for days before he expires. Hence, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mar 15:44. Also Pilate doubted the news that he died so Pilate asked for confirmation in also Mark 15:44.

And he got the confirmation. The Romans were experts at executions. They knew how to make sure someone was dead.

Saying "He was stabbed by a soldier to make sure he was dead before they took him down" is wrong because John 19:34 says "pierce" and* John 19:34 says blood and water gushed out proving his heart was still functioning because he was on cross for 9 hours which is not killing because typical crucifixion lasts for three days.

The spear made sure he was dead. If you are pierced by a spear so that your blood runs out, you die.

The response to "He was wrapped in cloth and 75 pounds of spices and ointments. He would have suffocated if he were not already dead. And then he was laid in a cold tomb and sealed in. Beaten, stabbed, suffocated. He would not have survived if he were alive" lies in fact that Jesus did not see corruption for three days in the tomb according Acts 13:37. Had he been dead, his body should decayed because " it is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42. Had Jesus been dead and risen immortally, Jesus SHOULD have appeared even once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews because he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Matthew 15:24 and also he promised them to do for them the miracle of Jonah in Matthew 16:4.*

Jesus did not see corruption because God resurrected him. Duh!

Saying" You believe that the prophesy was real, that Jesus was to be sacrificed and it was God's will, but then God saved Jesus because he prayed. Yet that means that God was wrong to want to sacrifice Jesus in the first place" needs to be clarified because as I said earlier Jonah in Jonah 3:4* said "Ninevah will be overthrown in forty days" but it did not happen because they repented. So it was in the case of Jesus, Jesus said he would die but he later prayed more earnestly to be saved in Luke 22:44 and he was rescued because Jesus said " ask and it will be given" in Matthew 7:7.*

In the case of Nineveh, God relented on PUNISHING the City because they repented. In the case of Jesus, he was not being punished for doing anything wrong. He was willing to be a sacrifice for our sins. There was nothing to repent of. It was God's plan to have Jesus die for our sins. If he then changed his mind because Jesus prayed, then it would be the same as God saying his original plan was wrong. Making God wrong.

[Same Hakeem]

Your statement " It says he was dead and raised back to life" is not very accourate because the Bible reports how certain eyewitenesses and non eyewitnesses viewed what Jesus experienced in his trial. I am only interested in what eyewitnesses said what happened to Jesus on the cross. These eyewitnesess to Jesus trial are the women, Pilate, the Centurion and Joseph according to the trial accounts of Jesus.

Saying "And he got the confirmation" is true but we are not told what the result of the confirmation was. To this effect, Mark 15:45 says "after he confirmed, Pilate granted the body to Joseph"

You saying "The Romans were experts at executions" is irrelevant because it is common that crucifixion lasts for three days. This explains why Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44. Furthermore, Pilate doubted the news of his alleged death as he asked for confirmation also in Mark 15:44 also.

You writing " The spear made sure he was dead" is not true because had the spear pierce been life threatening, the greek word (Ptoma) always used for dead should have been used to describe Jesus body when it was laid in tomb in Luke 23:55.

You writing "If you are pierced by a spear so that your blood runs out, you die" is not true because when blood gushes out (not only came out) as in Jesus case, it means his heart is still functioning.

Your statement " Jesus did not see corruption because God resurrected him" is not correct according to the Bible because to be resurrected, it first requires death according to 1 Corinthians 15:42 "it is sown in corruption and it is raised in incorruption" whereas Jesus was not buried in corruption because Jesus did not experience corruption in his tomb as per Acts 13:37.

[Same Hakeem]

Your statement "In the case of Jesus, he was not being punished for doing anything wrong" is not true according to Ezk 18:1 "the soul that sins shall die"

Saying "He was willing to be a sacrifice for our sins" is not true and refuted by Jesus praying earnestly to be saved from death in Luke 22:44.

[Sparko]

hakeem your objections and rationalizations don't even make sense.

[Same Hakeem]

Hi, John 19:29-30 tell us that wine was given to Jesus and Jesus took it. Please tell us why the wine was given to Jesus.