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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Hi, John 19:29-30 tell us that wine was given to Jesus and Jesus took it. Please tell us why the wine was given to Jesus.
    Why do you think (sour) wine was given to Jesus? John 19:28 might give a clue as to why.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Why do you think (sour) wine was given to Jesus? John 19:28 might give a clue as to why.
      The answer is " In order to make him insensible to pain, a drink (ὁξος, Matt. xxvii. 34, 48; John xix. 29) was given him. This was in accordance with the humane Jewish provision (see Maimonides, "Yad," Sanh. xiii. 2; Sanh. 43a). The beverage was a mixture of myrrh () and wine, given "so that the delinquent might lose clear consciousness through the ensuing intoxication."

      Source: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        The answer is " In order to make him insensible to pain, a drink (ὁξος, Matt. xxvii. 34, 48; John xix. 29) was given him. This was in accordance with the humane Jewish provision (see Maimonides, "Yad," Sanh. xiii. 2; Sanh. 43a). The beverage was a mixture of myrrh () and wine, given "so that the delinquent might lose clear consciousness through the ensuing intoxication."

        Source: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion
        Sort of. He was offered that earlier in the process (Mark 15:23, Matt. 27:34), but refused it. The second time (Matt. 27:48, John 19:29), there is no mention of anything added to it.

        By the way, if you've lost your password, we can reset it for you and combine your new account with your old one; we generally do not allow people to have more than one account.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • One Bad Pig saying "The second time (Matt. 27:48, John 19:29), there is no mention of anything added to it" is not true because in John 19:29 & 30, the wine was offered to Jesus in John 19:29 and most importantly Jesus drank the wine as per John 19:30. Such wine offer was for the purposes of (1) making the victim lose consciousness and (2) of reducing his pain. Such wine offer was unique trial since roman crucifixions do not have the wine offer in them.

          Source: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
            One Bad Pig saying "The second time (Matt. 27:48, John 19:29), there is no mention of anything added to it" is not true because in John 19:29 & 30, the wine was offered to Jesus in John 19:29 and most importantly Jesus drank the wine as per John 19:30. Such wine offer was for the purposes of (1) making the victim lose consciousness and (2) of reducing his pain. Such wine offer was unique trial since roman crucifixions do not have the wine offer in them.

            Source: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4782-crucifixion
            Would you like to try addressing the argument I made instead of simply repeating yours?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.
                Strange post for one who is posting against what the Quran itself affirms as scriptures.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                  sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.
                  I didn't say anything about you not understanding my post. Your response isn't giving me much confidence that you can, however.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • If this is how Hakeem argues in a thread, I doubt anyone would bother debating him in his challenge in the Arena. It would be like arguing with a brick wall.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                      sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.
                      Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did.

                      Comment


                      • Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

                        I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.
                        Last edited by Same Hakeem; 02-07-2018, 09:29 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                          Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

                          I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.
                          It's not, however. You (and the Jewish Encyclopedia) are reading into John 19:29 what simply isn't there. All that was offered to Jesus on a sponge at that point was the unadulterated wine the soldiers had around to consume themselves; it would not have nearly been enough to intoxicate him or dull the pain, even if he managed to somehow suck down the whole sponge-full. Even if, for the sake of argument, there was some myrrh mixed with the wine, he didn't get much of it, and almost certainly died before it would have taken effect.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                            Mossrose writing " The executioners had crucified thousands of people by the time of Jesus' death. They certainly weren't too stupid to not recognize a dead person when they saw one, and that is without the medical knowledge we boast of now" is refuted by the fact that after all trial Jesus received by the Roman Soldiers who were experts in killing, Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus died according to Mark 15:44 because according to Christian Commentaries at biblehub.com on Mark 15:44 that is common for the victim of crucifixion to live upto days.
                            And some died just from the beating before being placed on the cross.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                              And some died just from the beating before being placed on the cross.
                              Can you kindly provide us with an evidence to the above statement?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                                Thanks Sparko. Now I understand your questions.

                                The answer to Sparko questions below lies in the fact the disciples thought he should be dead in the tomb for three days and three nights because they heard from other sources that he died on the cross and was laid in tomb. All their source of what happened to him is what they heard from others because Mark 14:50 says "they ALL have fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

                                The following questions are Sparko quedtions;

                                Scenario 1: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, but he didn't. They don't recognize him because?

                                Scenario 2: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, and he did but was resurrected. They don't recognize him because?
                                The Scriptures tell us by they didn't recongnize Jesus on the road:

                                "16 But they[c] were prevented from recognizing Him."

                                Jesus had something to tell these men:

                                25 He said to them, “How unwise and slow you are to believe in your hearts all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Didn’t the Messiah have to suffer these things and enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted for them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

                                Jesus needed their full attention which they would not have given Him if they recognized Him.

                                But:

                                30 It was as He reclined at the table with them that He took the bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized Him, but He disappeared from their sight.

                                Comment

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