[For Jethreuel] Am I a Lamanite?

[Trout]

Jethreuel,

I have native american heritage, my mother is a Cherokee indian, I am a member in good standing of the Cherokee Nation.

When I was younger and was approached by people of the LDS faith, many of them would say to me that I was in fact a Lamanite. Meaning that my mother was a descendant of Lehi who left Jerusalem some 600 BC, and migrated to the Americas, where he became the progenitor of the various indian people in South, Central and North America. I'm sure you're familiar with the story.

But, I haven't heard this concept offered so freely of late and was wondering if this principle is still taught as truth in the LDS faith.

Thanks,

Trout

[Conductor42]

I'm not LDS, but I'd imagine the answer would be "maybe" or "most likely" - as most Mormon scholars don't believe that Lehi's family was the only family to come to the continent.

On a side note, I've had discussions with some Cherokee (who were affiliated with the messianic christian movement) that honestly believed themselves to be from a lost tribe of Israel, and offered some interesting evidence.

[Nosnomis]

I can only give my personal opinion, but I believe that Dead Hobbit has a decent answer. I believe that the Lamanites, along with possibly other migratory groups, gave rise to the Native Americans we know today. While I definately believe that Lamanites did give rise to the Native Americans, I am not willing to close my mind to the concept that there may have been other groups of people involved.

I will add that I don't believe having Lamanite ancestors to be a bad thing. It means that your ancestors saw Christ, and learned from him, that you are of the Tribes of Israel, that many of the Prophets in the Book of Mormon (especialy Moroni) were directing their writings to you, and that you have a promise from the Lord that your Nationality will be preserved (unlike the Nephites, who were warned that they would be destroyed if they did not repent, and who were eventually destroyed when they became wicked enough to rape, torture, kill and eat the raw flesh of Lamanite maidens, and to consider doing such an act of bravery to be commended.)

Does that answer your question?

May God be with you.

[Amazing Rando]

Lamanite= someone who got too close to the teacher's laminating machine.

[technomage]

Lamanite= someone who got too close to the teacher's laminating machine.

Rando, you're a ba-a-a-a-aaad boy!

[Trout]

I can only give my personal opinion, but I believe that Dead Hobbit has a decent answer. I believe that the Lamanites, along with possibly other migratory groups, gave rise to the Native Americans we know today. While I definately believe that Lamanites did give rise to the Native Americans, I am not willing to close my mind to the concept that there may have been other groups of people involved.

So, you are going to stick with the, "maybe" answer offered by deadhobbit?

When approached by many LDS in authority, including and up to members of the Seventy, they always, with authority, told me that I was in fact a Lamanite.

And it was also one of the evangelism tools used to recruit native Americans to the Mormon faith, used quite extensively in the area where I currently live.

Do you think that the LDS church was completely forthright in telling native Americans that they were descendants of the Jewish people of the middle east?

Jethreuel:
I will add that I don't believe having Lamanite ancestors to be a bad thing.

How does one determine if in fact they are of Lamanite descent?

Jethreuel::
It means that your ancestors saw Christ, and learned from him, that you are of the Tribes of Israel, that many of the Prophets in the Book of Mormon (especialy Moroni) were directing their writings to you, and that you have a promise from the Lord that your Nationality will be preserved (unlike the Nephites, who were warned that they would be destroyed if they did not repent, and who were eventually destroyed when they became wicked enough to rape, torture, kill and eat the raw flesh of Lamanite maidens, and to consider doing such an act of bravery to be commended.)

It would seem that the Lamanites have also vanished from the Americas. What evidence is there that would lead you to believe that there are still Lamanites living in the Americas who were descendants of Lehi?

Jethreuel:
Does that answer your question?

Not yet.

Jethreuel:
May God be with you.

May God bless you as well.

[technomage]

I can only give my personal opinion, but I believe that Dead Hobbit has a decent answer. I believe that the Lamanites, along with possibly other migratory groups, gave rise to the Native Americans we know today. While I definately believe that Lamanites did give rise to the Native Americans, I am not willing to close my mind to the concept that there may have been other groups of people involved.

I will add that I don't believe having Lamanite ancestors to be a bad thing. It means that your ancestors saw Christ, and learned from him, that you are of the Tribes of Israel, that many of the Prophets in the Book of Mormon (especialy Moroni) were directing their writings to you, and that you have a promise from the Lord that your Nationality will be preserved (unlike the Nephites, who were warned that they would be destroyed if they did not repent, and who were eventually destroyed when they became wicked enough to rape, torture, kill and eat the raw flesh of Lamanite maidens, and to consider doing such an act of bravery to be commended.)

Does that answer your question?

May God be with you.

So let me ask you this: why do we find not only a lack of evidence about there ever having been a Lamanite culture, but considerable evidence that the Lamanite and Nephite cultures as described in the BoM never existed?

[Nosnomis]

So, you are going to stick with the, "maybe" answer offered by deadhobbit?

When approached by many LDS in authority, including and up to members of the Seventy, they always, with authority, told me that I was in fact a Lamanite.

And it was also one of the evangelism tools used to recruit native Americans to the Mormon faith, used quite extensively in the area where I currently live.

Do you think that the LDS church was completely forthright in telling native Americans that they were descendants of the Jewish people of the middle east?

How does one determine if in fact they are of Lamanite descent?

It would seem that the Lamanites have also vanished from the Americas. What evidence is there that would lead you to believe that there are still Lamanites living in the Americas who were descendants of Lehi?

Not yet.

May God bless you as well.

Let me mention something off-topic real fast to to try to show you where I am coming from. You know of the controversy between science and religion? About whether or not to teach intelligent design in schools? Many people in this arguement have a closed mind, and are unwilling to accept any other possibilities that they are already taught. It is this kind of attitude that led to many wars and persecutions of various peoples in the past. I am not willing to close my mind and say that something is such and there is no chance of it being otherwise (except regarding issues of morality, but that is different.) Do I believe Lamanites to be the ancestors of today's Native Americans? Yes. Am I willing to say that they are the only ancestors of the Native Americans, and deny the possibility that there might be other peoples who came to the Americas after the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites and mingled with them? Or that there might have been other nations that existed in the Americas as well during the time of the Book of Mormon who were not mentioned? No, I am not willing to close my mind to that possibility, as it is easier to accept new information with an open mind than with a closed mind. It is for this reason that Creationists are always fighting against Evolutionists, as they have closed their minds to the point that they reject anything that the other side might have. I believe this is also the reason why several people are strongly against the Book of Mormon, as they have closed their minds to the possibility that God may have called prophets to other people in the world besides the Hebrews in Israel, that the Holy Bible is all the Truth that the world needs today, and have rejected the possibility that God may be speaking to mankind today in these last days.

What do you tell your children? Do you tell them only of your Cherokee heritage and act as though they are your children's only heritage, or do you also admit to your Caucasian(sp?) heritage. I am saying that I will not deny any other heritages that the Native Americans may have, as I do not claim to be the expert of Native American geneology, but I do say that we have knowlegde of some of your ancestors.

I would say that a way to determine whether you are of Lamanite descent would be to do your geneology to trace ancestors back to as early as 400 A.D. (earlier, if possible to around 80 B.C.) and see if the events surrounding your ancestors were similar to the events transpiring in the Book of Mormon. I would personally get a Patriarchal Blessing, but I am unsure whether you would take the word of a Patriarch pertaining to your heritage.

As a Coherrant Nation, yes the Lamanites have fallen, but they have not been destroyed and made extinct like the Nephites were. Nations have broken into smaller Nations in the past, and I would not be surprised if that happened here as well.

One of the main things I have for a surety that there are still people of Lamanite descent today is in the Book of Mormon where the Lamanites were promised that they would not be destroyed. There are other things, but those are often claimed by others to be mere coincidences (such as similar traditions between the Native Americans and the Jewish people, ruins of ancient cities found where the Book of Mormon said they would be.) If people don't want to believe something, no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Hence the trouble with getting rid of the concept that the earth was flat, and then the concept that everything revolved around the world.

[Trout]

Jethreuel:
Let me mention something off-topic real fast to to try to show you where I am coming from.

OK.

Jethreuel:
You know of the controversy between science and religion? About whether or not to teach intelligent design in schools?

I am somewhat familiar with the controversy.

Jethreuel:
Many people in this arguement have a closed mind, and are unwilling to accept any other possibilities that they are already taught.

The people who have closed minds are quickly discovered in the ensuing dialogue. When presented with evidence, or lack of evidence in regards to their position, their refusal to consider the notion that their position may be incorrect becomes rather obvious.

Jethreuel:
It is this kind of attitude that led to many wars and persecutions of various peoples in the past. I am not willing to close my mind and say that something is such and there is no chance of it being otherwise (except regarding issues of morality, but that is different.)

So you are willing to consider the fact that the indigenous peoples of the Americas are not descendants of Jewish nations right, Jethreuel?

You are willing to consider the idea that the Book of Mormon isn't in fact a history of the Americas.

Jethreuel:
Do I believe Lamanites to be the ancestors of today's Native Americans? Yes.

OK, what evidence leads you to take that position?

Jethreuel:
Am I willing to say that they are the only ancestors of the Native Americans, and deny the possibility that there might be other peoples who came to the Americas after the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites and mingled with them?

OK, what evidence do you have that would make you believe that there were in fact Jewish people to mix with the indigenous people of the Americas. I think it's fairly obvious that there are people in the Americas who were/are in fact not descended from the Jewish nations right, Jethreuel?

Jethreuel:
Or that there might have been other nations that existed in the Americas as well during the time of the Book of Mormon who were not mentioned? No, I am not willing to close my mind to that possibility, as it is easier to accept new information with an open mind than with a closed mind.

OK, have you considered the "new information" in the form of DNA science?

It seems to make evident the notion that the Native American people are not descended from the Jewish nations.

Jethreuel:
It is for this reason that Creationists are always fighting against Evolutionists, as they have closed their minds to the point that they reject anything that the other side might have.

There are Theistic Evolutionists who believe in both creation and evolution.

There is also compelling evidence favoring both sides of that issue.

Jethreuel:
I believe this is also the reason why several people are strongly against the Book of Mormon, as they have closed their minds to the possibility that God may have called prophets to other people in the world besides the Hebrews in Israel, that the Holy Bible is all the Truth that the world needs today, and have rejected the possibility that God may be speaking to mankind today in these last days.

But you are willing to consider the idea that the Book of Mormon's detractors are in fact correct, right Jethreuel?

Jethreuel:
What do you tell your children? Do you tell them only of your Cherokee heritage and act as though they are your children's only heritage, or do you also admit to your Caucasian(sp?) heritage.

I tell my children that they are descended from the native people of the Americas and that they have descended from european ancestry as well.

Jethreuel:
I am saying that I will not deny any other heritages that the Native Americans may have, as I do not claim to be the expert of Native American geneology, but I do say that we have knowlegde of some of your ancestors.

What knowledge do you have about my ancestors, Jethreuel?

Jethreuel:
I would say that a way to determine whether you are of Lamanite descent would be to do your geneology to trace ancestors back to as early as 400 A.D. (earlier, if possible to around 80 B.C.) and see if the events surrounding your ancestors were similar to the events transpiring in the Book of Mormon.

How would that serve to determine whether or not I was a Lamanite? You have said that you are open to the possibility that there were other people living in the Americas who were not descended from Lehi.

Jethreuel:
I would personally get a Patriarchal Blessing, but I am unsure whether you would take the word of a Patriarch pertaining to your heritage.

If I were to consider getting this blessing, it would be given by the very same people who told me with complete certainty that I was of Lamanite descent - as I mentioned above - when in fact, the evidence seems to indicate that I'm not of Lamanite descent. In other words, they may not be trustworthy.

Trout:
It would seem that the Lamanites have also vanished from the Americas.

Jethreuel:
As a Coherrant Nation, yes the Lamanites have fallen, but they have not been destroyed and made extinct like the Nephites were. Nations have broken into smaller Nations in the past, and I would not be surprised if that happened here as well.

Where are the remnants of the Lamanites, Jethreuel? Evidence seems to indicate that there are no people of Jewish descent among the indigenous people of the Americas.

Jethreuel:
One of the main things I have for a surety that there are still people of Lamanite descent today is in the Book of Mormon where the Lamanites were promised that they would not be destroyed.

But you aren't one of the closed minded people who you have spoken against, right Jethreuel?

You are willing to consider that idea that Lamanites never inhabited the Americas, right Jethreuel?

Jethreuel:
There are other things, but those are often claimed by others to be mere coincidences (such as similar traditions between the Native Americans and the Jewish people, ruins of ancient cities found where the Book of Mormon said they would be.)

In my opinion, many of those things seem to be exaggerated by the LDS apologist, desperate for evidence that would make his belief system correct. Close scrutiny seems to debunk those proofs.

Jethreuel:
If people don't want to believe something, no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise.

Do you consider me to be that kind of a person, Jethreuel?

Jethreuel:
Hence the trouble with getting rid of the concept that the earth was flat, and then the concept that everything revolved around the world.

I don't believe the earth to be flat, I don't believe in a geocentric universe. There are many great reasons to believe that the earth is round, and that the sun is the center of our solar system.

What evidences are there to indicate that I am a Lamanite, Jethreuel?

Do you think that the LDS church was completely forthright in telling native Americans that they were descendants of the Jewish people of the middle east?

[Krusader]

Jethreuel,

I have native american heritage, my mother is a Cherokee indian, I am a member in good standing of the Cherokee Nation.

When I was younger and was approached by people of the LDS faith, many of them would say to me that I was in fact a Lamanite. Meaning that my mother was a descendant of Lehi who left Jerusalem some 600 BC, and migrated to the Americas, where he became the progenitor of the various indian people in South, Central and North America. I'm sure you're familiar with the story.

But, I haven't heard this concept offered so freely of late and was wondering if this principle is still taught as truth in the LDS faith.

Thanks,

Trout

Hi Trout, so are you white and delightsome, now?

I like your logo, but isn't it of Sitting Bull, the Ogalala Sioux Inidan man? My grandson is directly descended from him through his father. He still has relatives on Pine Ridge. My grandson, is white and delightsome, however he was born that way!

[Trout]

Hi Trout, so are you white and delightsome, now?

I like your logo, but isn't it of Sitting Bull, the Ogalala Sioux Inidan man? My grandson is directly descended from him through his father. He still has relatives on Pine Ridge. My grandson, is white and delightsome, however he was born that way!

It's Sitting Bull, I couldn't find a good picture of a Cherokee.

And that reminds me . . . when are you going to start using an avatar, Crusader?

[Krusader]

It's Sitting Bull, I couldn't find a good picture of a Cherokee.

And that reminds me . . . when are you going to start using an avatar, Crusader?

Well, I could use a Viking, I suppose, if I was into ethnic stuff.

I thought the picture was of Sitting Bull. His grandsons migrated down to Pine Ridge, and there intermarried with Lakotas. One intermarried with a Crow Princess. My grandson is, therefore, Ogalala, Lakota and Crow.

[rightlyso]

But you aren't one of the closed minded people who you have spoken against, right Jethreuel?

You are willing to consider that idea that Lamanites never inhabited the Americas, right Jethreuel?

wow, this is intense! i like it! btw, jethreuel, what specifically has the bom been used to find?

here's a question that probably doesn't belong in this thread: has any document ever been found (other than the bom) that was written in "reformed egyptian"? what evidence is there that such a language ever existed?

[SpiritWoman]

Let me mention something off-topic real fast to to try to show you where I am coming from. You know of the controversy between science and religion? About whether or not to teach intelligent design in schools? Many people in this arguement have a closed mind, and are unwilling to accept any other possibilities that they are already taught. It is this kind of attitude that led to many wars and persecutions of various peoples in the past. I am not willing to close my mind and say that something is such and there is no chance of it being otherwise (except regarding issues of morality, but that is different.) Do I believe Lamanites to be the ancestors of today's Native Americans? Yes. Am I willing to say that they are the only ancestors of the Native Americans, and deny the possibility that there might be other peoples who came to the Americas after the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites and mingled with them? Or that there might have been other nations that existed in the Americas as well during the time of the Book of Mormon who were not mentioned? No, I am not willing to close my mind to that possibility, as it is easier to accept new information with an open mind than with a closed mind. It is for this reason that Creationists are always fighting against Evolutionists, as they have closed their minds to the point that they reject anything that the other side might have. I believe this is also the reason why several people are strongly against the Book of Mormon, as they have closed their minds to the possibility that God may have called prophets to other people in the world besides the Hebrews in Israel, that the Holy Bible is all the Truth that the world needs today, and have rejected the possibility that God may be speaking to mankind today in these last days.

What do you tell your children? Do you tell them only of your Cherokee heritage and act as though they are your children's only heritage, or do you also admit to your Caucasian(sp?) heritage. I am saying that I will not deny any other heritages that the Native Americans may have, as I do not claim to be the expert of Native American geneology, but I do say that we have knowlegde of some of your ancestors.

I would say that a way to determine whether you are of Lamanite descent would be to do your geneology to trace ancestors back to as early as 400 A.D. (earlier, if possible to around 80 B.C.) and see if the events surrounding your ancestors were similar to the events transpiring in the Book of Mormon. I would personally get a Patriarchal Blessing, but I am unsure whether you would take the word of a Patriarch pertaining to your heritage.

As a Coherrant Nation, yes the Lamanites have fallen, but they have not been destroyed and made extinct like the Nephites were. Nations have broken into smaller Nations in the past, and I would not be surprised if that happened here as well.

One of the main things I have for a surety that there are still people of Lamanite descent today is in the Book of Mormon where the Lamanites were promised that they would not be destroyed. There are other things, but those are often claimed by others to be mere coincidences (such as similar traditions between the Native Americans and the Jewish people, ruins of ancient cities found where the Book of Mormon said they would be.) If people don't want to believe something, no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. Hence the trouble with getting rid of the concept that the earth was flat, and then the concept that everything revolved around the world.

Hello,

I know that this is a very old thread, but for the sake of my Native American ancestry, I must make on comment regarding any possibility of The Natives of the Notrth Americans especially the Cherokee being associated to Ancient Judaism.

The cherokee lived in a Matriarchial society and their culture and Gods were very simular to the Pagen dieties of the celts and Welch dieties of the Green Man/Corn Maiden and the earth's seasonal/celestial events were celebrated.

In fact all religions of the Native Americans have a Mother Earth Goddess. This was never practiced in Judaism. And when comparing all world religions it is in fact only the religions that stem from Judaism that do not conceive of a Mother Earth God. The "Creator/Great Mystery" is in fact what it is exactly called by the Native Americans.

If you are going to search for truths through the Native American culture and compare them to Egyptian offshoots of spirituality, I suggest beginning with Native American prophets. Try Black Elk. Vine Deloria Jr has a great book out called "God is Red". This would truly open anyones eyes who think their would be a connection to the Mormon/Western European/Christian intrusion on Native American Spirituality and properly debunct what is truly an abomination to the Spirit of Native American Ancestory.

Be fair. Do not rape other people's religious culture.

The Mormon's belief that all of humanity is to be made "White" is just another way to destroy other cultures and melt them into their own thoughts and beliefs.

Nothing more or nothing less.

Peace.

[misterguss]

So let me ask you this: why do we find not only a lack of evidence about there ever having been a Lamanite culture, but considerable evidence that the Lamanite and Nephite cultures as described in the BoM never existed?

Yeah...I never got that one. How do people believe something existed (Lamanites) without ANY evidence? There is plenty of evidence of the people groups in the Bible existing...more proof that the Bible is accurate...and more proof that the book of mormon is b.s.