If Works Are Necessary For Justification....

[seer]

If works are necessary for justification, even in part, then how can a man have assurance of salvation? Will not sin (failing to do said good works) separate us from God? And if prefection in works is not required, then what standard is used - how would we know?

[7thangel]

If works are necessary for justification, even in part, then how can a man have assurance of salvation? Will not sin (failing to do said good works) separate us from God? And if prefection in works is not required, then what standard is used - how would we know?

That is the reason why I am a Calvinist(whatever that means). In mind, in will, and in act, I never seen myself "perfect;" even though I fully accepted Christ as my Lord and saviour. So why would I justify myself, nor others, according to their mind, works, and will? Rather, I hold to what King David believed and which Paul preached; "that blessed is the man whom God will not impute sin."

The seal that I have that makes me believe I am saved is the understanding of the justness of the salvation of God. I am not walking in darkness as others not knowing the real godhead, being caught up in paradoxes, confusions, and mysteries.

[FlimFlamboyant]

If works are necessary for justification, even in part, then how can a man have assurance of salvation? Will not sin (failing to do said good works) separate us from God? And if prefection in works is not required, then what standard is used - how would we know?

Excellent and very appropriate question. Sin is within our flesh whether we're under the law of Moses, under some other law, or not under law at all. What makes people think that sin won't rebel against ANY law that's thrown at us to perform? We are a new creature, not a bag of flesh that is "under tutors and governors" (Gal 4:2). We're full-blown adult sons of God in the inward man; that's what counts. There's no law for that; there's no need for one. We're born of the Spirit, and the Spirit needs no list of dos and don'ts to live in perfect righteousness.

(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These sin-corrupted bodies are going to be disposed of; God has no interest in saving them through law or by any other means. The inward man has already been saved; he's a new man, which was "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24). What law does he need?

[7thangel]

Excellent and very appropriate question. Sin is within our flesh whether we're under the law of Moses, under some other law, or not under law at all. What makes people think that sin won't rebel against ANY law that's thrown at us to perform? We are a new creature, not a bag of flesh that is "under tutors and governors" (Gal 4:2). We're full-blown adult sons of God in the inward man; that's what counts. There's no law for that; there's no need for one. We're born of the Spirit, and the Spirit needs no list of dos and don'ts to live in perfect righteousness.

(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These sin-corrupted bodies are going to be disposed of; God has no interest in saving them through law or by any other means. The inward man has already been saved; he's a new man, which was "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24). What law does he need?

Try an in-depth analysis of your answer, and ask yourself: is the body really a different entity to the inward man? Or, isn't the inward man is also responsible on how the body works? Is the body really the sinner? If the body is really the sinner, why not all of us be taken out of the body and that all may be perfect?


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[seer]

That is the reason why I am a Calvinist(whatever that means). In mind, in will, and in act, I never seen myself "perfect;" even though I fully accepted Christ as my Lord and saviour. So why would I justify myself, nor others, according to their mind, works, and will? Rather, I hold to what King David believed and which Paul preached; "that blessed is the man whom God will not impute sin."

The seal that I have that makes me believe I am saved is the understanding of the justness of the salvation of God. I am not walking in darkness as others not knowing the real godhead, being caught up in paradoxes, confusions, and mysteries.

That is why, on an emotional level, Calvinism (or determinism) is quite attractive to me...

[FlimFlamboyant]

Try an in-depth analysis of your answer, and ask yourself: is the body really a different entity to the inward man?

Yes.

(2Co 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Our true identity is now our inward man, which is associated with these bodies by location only. They are two different things.

Or, isn't the inward man is also responsible on how the body works?

Nope!

(Rom 7:22,23) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Two different entities, locked in battle as long as we inhabit these bodies.

Is the body really the sinner?

Yes, or more specifically, corrupted by sin.

If the body is really the sinner, why not all of us be taken out of the body and that all may be perfect?

We will be.

(Rom 7:24,25) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(1Co 15:52,53) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[7thangel]

Yes.

(2Co 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Our true identity is now our inward man, which is associated with these bodies by location only. They are two different things.


Nope!

(Rom 7:22,23) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Two different entities, locked in battle as long as we inhabit these bodies.


Yes, or more specifically, corrupted by sin.


We will be.

(Rom 7:24,25) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(1Co 15:52,53) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is not a matter of providing me with verses, rather on how much you understand the verity of what you are saying. How if I tell you that what your reply is mere show of ignorance and "fleshly knowledge?" So, now, would you accept that the inward man is actually sinning, even lying to yourself and claiming to be true something that you are not even sure of?

[FlimFlamboyant]

It is not a matter of providing me with verses

Then what non-subjective source would you prefer instead?

How if I tell you that what your reply is mere show of ignorance and "fleshly knowledge?"

Such a statement would mean nothing to me without the scripture to prove it.

So, now, would you accept that the inward man is actually sinning, even lying to yourself and claiming to be true something that you are not even sure of?

The inward man "delights in the law of God" (Rom 7:22). Therefore I cannot accept the notion that the inward man would be sinning or lying.

[7thangel]

Then what non-subjective source would you prefer instead?

If a man will do his "will" he will know of the doctrine if it be of God or not; the bible said that.

What I want you to do is explain the mysteries you quoted and show the reality of them.

Such a statement would mean nothing to me without the scripture to prove it.

It is the Spirit of God which reveals the secrets of God. What is the point of showing you the Scriptures when, even in your response, you already showed ignorance?

The inward man "delights in the law of God" (Rom 7:22). Therefore I cannot accept the notion that the inward man would be sinning or lying.

So, what you seem are saying, is that if you sin it is the flesh. But when you do good it is the inward man. How sure are you about that? How if I tell you that you have a "multiple personality syndrome?"

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[seer]

Then what non-subjective source would you prefer instead?


Such a statement would mean nothing to me without the scripture to prove it.


The inward man "delights in the law of God" (Rom 7:22). Therefore I cannot accept the notion that the inward man would be sinning or lying.

Why do all my threads get highjacked!

[7thangel]

That is why, on an emotional level, Calvinism (or determinism) is quite attractive to me...

Why would you just say "emotional level," when knowledge wise, and experience wise it is very true? Neither Arminians, I believe, cannot deny it.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Why do all my threads get highjacked!

Sorry about that... it seems that every thread tends to end up well off-topic eventually; some sooner than others. If 7th wants to prove that there is some sort of nebulous, mysterious "truth" that we can grasp that is outside of and even supercedes what has been written, then I encourage him/her to create a topic on that subject, and I'll join it. I won't comment on it any futher here.

[FlimFlamboyant]

So, what you seem are saying, is that if you sin it is the flesh. But when you do good it is the inward man. How sure are you about that? How if I tell you that you have a "multiple personality syndrome?"

That's not the same thing. We''re talking about two entirely different people, not two different personalities within the same person. It's right there in Romans 7.

[Xmansmommy]

I guess for me, believing that faith is the condition for salvation helps me know whether or not I'm in the faith. If I'm exhibiting faith it will be evidenced in my life in various ways. By my works and by how I react to circumstances when my faith is tested.

I'm not sure that Calvinism or OSAS adherents are always assured when faced with the same issues. They can always fall back on God and His faithfulness but in the every day ups and downs they sometimes struggle with knowing if they are one of the elect or one who has faith just the same.

I think there are enough passages to describe how we will know if we are in the faith. Each of them describe a visible meter to determine faithfulness (loving God, loving neighbor as self). If works are stagnant in a person's life, I'd question that person's faith. If there was never a need to question our faith or salvation, why are we told to examine ourselves to see whether or not we are in the faith?

[7thangel]

For Flim and Seer:

That's not the same thing. We''re talking about two entirely different people, not two different personalities within the same person. It's right there in Romans 7.

The point I am getting at is of "how would we know?" which is the OP is after. I can say the same thing, but the point is do you understand them? That is where we differ with regards to the question in the OP; on "how would we know." To me, you are just stating mysteries, not actually understanding them.


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