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Thread: Recognizing the false Christian cults.

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soyeong View Post
    In other words, when you have a full understanding of the law and obey it, the result will be that you will bear one another's burdens.
    Yup! "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Gal. 5:14).

    I've been emphasizing the importance of obedience, so this just reinforces my point.
    And I agree because I understand what genuine faith is - and by the grace of God possess it.

    I agree, but then if you have a good understanding, then you should seek to express it in a way that those who don't have a good understanding will be able to understand.
    I strive to do just that.

  2. #12
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Soyeong & Scrawly,

    What has this to do with recognizing false Christian cults?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Soyeong & Scrawly,

    What has this to do with recognizing false Christian cults?
    I think they're disputing some of the points you're making, or at the very least your wordings of them.

  5. #14
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Its seems you're basically targeting the Eastern Orthodoxy and the Holy Catholic Church with those extra points. But since what the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox believes, go back to the roots of the earliest churches, then if they're wrong... then there's only been false cults until Luther and Calvin.

  6. Amen Marta amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Its seems you're basically targeting the Eastern Orthodoxy and the Holy Catholic Church with those extra points.
    Well, are those extra issues false? Question: Does the "Holy Catholic Church" and the "Eastern Orthodoxy" deny any essentials of the Christian faith? Did I say they denied the essentials?

    But since what the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox believes, go back to the roots of the earliest churches, then if they're wrong... then there's only been false cults until Luther and Calvin.
    Christ said, "I will build My church and the gates of the realm of the dead shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

    So there has always been Christ's church. An essay.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #16
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Well, are those extra issues false? Question: Does the "Holy Catholic Church" and the "Eastern Orthodoxy" deny any essentials of the Christian faith? Did I say they denied the essentials?
    The first point is flawed, in as much as its not clear enough to distinguish a visible Church with a visible human head (the pope) and Apostolic Succession, but which is institude by Christ (the true head) and lead by the Holy Spirit. What do you think the earliest Church was under the apostles? There was already hierarchy among them, the Apostles had the right to teach and define doctrine, to interpret scriptures and bind people to certain readings of them, which is what they do in the letters we have, etc... That authority can't just be waved away, or justified in light of scripture, because most of scripture didn't exist back then, and even then hadn't been collected, and even if collected, was so scarce, expensive and rare that they had to be chained to the pulpits to prevent them from being stolen.

    Your second point is merely sola scriptura.

    Your third point is against just protestant doctrine. Oddly enough Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not deny that we're saved by grace alone, and that any merit we have is imputed by grace and that without grace our works have no merit. What we deny is the Gnosticism that its merely enough to intellectually recognize that Christ is Risen, and "the essentials".

    So I'm pretty much right, I think, that with those three extra points you're targeting all the older forms of Christianity, from Catholics, to Coptics, to Eastern Orthodox.

    Christ said, "I will build My church and the gates of the realm of the dead shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18).

    So there has always been Christ's church. An essay.
    What He says is true of course. The Catholic Church has always been, and will never fall.

    I'm still not sure how you'd maintain the truth of this saying of Christ, against the reality that baptists, or Protestantism in any codified form didn't exist until around the 16th Century. Either you'll have to accept that what the Roman Catholic says is true or is merely heterodox (and so one could firmly believe all of it without loss of salvation), or you'd be forced to accept that not only did the Holy Spirit neglect to maintain the truth in Christians so much so that basically all of them fell into grievous error pretty much immediately, and didn't make this broadly known until more than a millennium afterwards.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 04-05-2015 at 07:49 AM.

  9. Amen Marta amen'd this post.
  10. #17
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    What we deny is the Gnosticism that its merely enough to intellectually recognize that Christ is Risen, and "the essentials".
    What?!

    First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?

  11. #18
    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    What?!

    First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?
    I did not percieve this as an attack on Protestants, it is I presume based on a charge made by Irenaeus against the Valentinians whom iirc made the claim that spiritual people could not sin, only material and animal people could, and that gnosis(knowledge) not faith is salvic.

    I think Lepnhard is (rightly) distinguishing between intellectually affirming the holy truths of our faith, and contrasting against actually believing them.
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

  12. #19
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    I did not percieve this as an attack on Protestants
    Huh. Well I guess I'm a bit confused then. When Leonhard wrote "Your third point is against just protestant doctrine." was he saying that 37818 was against Protestant doctrine, or was he saying that he (Leonhard/the RCC) was against a certain Protestant doctrine?

    I think Lepnhard is (rightly) distinguishing between intellectually affirming the holy truths of our faith, and contrasting against actually believing them.
    Hmm. Using the dictionary definition of "belief", belief means to intellectually affirm, so I'm not sure I see any distinction there. Maybe you meant the difference between intellectually acknowledging the truths of the faith (which even the demons do), and actually having faith, which is assenting to those truths, putting trust in Christ, and living those truths out so that good works follow.

  13. #20
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Huh. Well I guess I'm a bit confused then. When Leonhard wrote "Your third point is against just protestant doctrine." was he saying that 37818 was against Protestant doctrine, or was he saying that he (Leonhard/the RCC) was against a certain Protestant doctrine?



    Hmm. Using the dictionary definition of "belief", belief means to intellectually affirm, so I'm not sure I see any distinction there. Maybe you meant the difference between intellectually acknowledging the truths of the faith (which even the demons do), and actually having faith, which is assenting to those truths, putting trust in Christ, and living those truths out so that good works follow.
    I think Leonhard made a typographical error, and meant to type "again" not "against."
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