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Thread: Recognizing the false Christian cults.

  1. #21
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I think Leonhard made a typographical error, and meant to type "again" not "against."
    Yup.

  2. #22
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    First of all, how is following what is essentially Romans 10:9 (If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) in any way a form of Gnosticism, and second of all, are you calling Protestants Gnostics?
    I would point out that you shouldn't quote mine, and use that as a method of exegesis. Weighing in on everything that St. Paul says, its clear that he calls people to radical conversion of the lives, turning away from their sins, and makes admonishments that those who don't will be damned.

    This is not in any way inconsistent with what is being said here, because the Letter of James makes clear that faith without works is dead.

  3. #23
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    The 'Gnosticism' part wasn't meant to say that protestants are gnostics, clearly they're not. However I think there's a gnostic tendency with the whole "Do you believe that Christ rose from the dead... good that its! You're on your way to Heaven, no matter what you do." Neither Lutherans, Calvinists or any other protestant has really held to this, but its a fairly popular understanding. It teaches that its the gnosis, the knowledge, that Christ rose from the dead, which saves. That acknowledgement is enough, but conversion and repentance is irrelevant.

    When I said that the other points he lists are merely protestant doctrine, I'm not attacking protestant doctrine (I don't believe in it, but I didn't make that kind of point), I merely meant that he was setting out points that are meant to simple exclude Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because they focus on a visible hierarchy and tradition.

  4. #24
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    I would point out that you shouldn't quote mine, and use that as a method of exegesis. Weighing in on everything that St. Paul says, its clear that he calls people to radical conversion of the lives, turning away from their sins, and makes admonishments that those who don't will be damned.

    This is not in any way inconsistent with what is being said here, because the Letter of James makes clear that faith without works is dead.
    Citing Romans 10:9 is quote-mining?

  5. Amen KingsGambit amen'd this post.
  6. #25
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    The 'Gnosticism' part wasn't meant to say that protestants are gnostics, clearly they're not. However I think there's a gnostic tendency with the whole "Do you believe that Christ rose from the dead... good that its! You're on your way to Heaven, no matter what you do." Neither Lutherans, Calvinists or any other protestant has really held to this, but its a fairly popular understanding. It teaches that its the gnosis, the knowledge, that Christ rose from the dead, which saves. That acknowledgement is enough, but conversion and repentance is irrelevant.
    If no one teaches it, how is it a fairly popular understanding? Why did you even bring it up?

    When I said that the other points he lists are merely protestant doctrine, I'm not attacking protestant doctrine (I don't believe in it, but I didn't make that kind of point), I merely meant that he was setting out points that are meant to simple exclude Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because they focus on a visible hierarchy and tradition.
    What specifically in his post were you asserting is Protestant doctrine? Can you spell out what you think Protestant doctrine is?

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    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    What specifically in his post were you asserting is Protestant doctrine?
    1) That the is not a Church is a visible, apostolic hierarchy.
    2) Sola Scriptura.
    3) Salvation by faith alone.

  8. #27
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Citing Romans 10:9 is quote-mining?
    Its one line. I don't like interpreting the Bible like that, just plucking out a line as if it exists in a vacuum. The whole context of the verse for that is the lack of faith in Israel and the need for people to go out and mission the word. So here he's not talking about someone who happens to believe in Christ's Resurrection, but someone who actively on a mission.

    This is not the same as someone who regularly falls into sexual depravity, gambles on the side, but goes to Church every Sunday and chews the fat with the others, and therefore thinks that his belief in Christ means his salvation is safe.

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Its one line. I don't like interpreting the Bible like that, just plucking out a line as if it exists in a vacuum. The whole context of the verse for that is the lack of faith in Israel and the need for people to go out and mission the word. So here he's not talking about someone who happens to believe in Christ's Resurrection, but someone who actively on a mission.

    This is not the same as someone who regularly falls into sexual depravity, gambles on the side, but goes to Church every Sunday and chews the fat with the others, and therefore thinks that his belief in Christ means his salvation is safe.
    So you think verse 9 is only for Israel, and then, only in the process of missionizing? Did you not note that verse 12 says that there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, and verse 13 that says that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved?

  10. #29
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    1) That the is not a Church is a visible, apostolic hierarchy.
    2) Sola Scriptura.
    3) Salvation by faith alone.
    Thank you. I note you skipped my other questions.

  11. #30
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I note you skipped my other questions.
    I'm sorry Adrift, I wasn't aware that I had to answer all questions that you in particular ask me.

    Some of those questions required fairly long answers, and I didn't find it important.

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