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Recognizing the false Christian cults.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    So you think verse 9 is only for Israel, and then, only in the process of missionizing? Did you not note that verse 12 says that there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, and verse 13 that says that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved?
    That's sure is lot of implied views of you about what I believe. Are you aware of when Jesus said that not all who call to Him "Lord, Lord" will be saved? See how easily you can wring out inconsistencies by pitting single quotes against others?

    Largely when you read the letters its clear that there's a message on throwing off your old lives, stop falling back into sins that lead to death (such as fornicating, drinking, lying, etc...), work out your salvation in fear and trembling. As well in our Lord's words. And that all this is part and parcel of being saved.

    Can this be interpreted in a protestant way? Yes, I'm sure it can. I think such interpretations are deeply flawed. However we won't solve this by picking out a single quote from St. Paul. And I'm not interested in citing down and pitting line against line, that's never fruitful and never leads to anything good.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 04-06-2015, 12:07 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      I'm sorry Adrift, I wasn't aware that I had to answer all questions that you in particular ask me.

      Some of those questions required fairly long answers, and I didn't find it important.
      You don't, but I think it revealing when you don't.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        You don't, but I think it revealing when you don't.
        Oh would you come off it? That high horse is a little tall for you.

        But sure if you're that curious about my answers Adrift, and you want me to answer one of them. Give me one.

        Not six though. If you give me six, I'll pick one, and answer that one.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          That's sure is lot of implied views of you about what I believe. Are you aware of when Jesus said that not all who call to Him "Lord, Lord" will be saved? See how easily you can wring out inconsistencies by pitting single quotes against others?
          It isn't at all inconsistent. Romans 10:10 reveals that the crucial requirement of 9 is belief in ones' heart, and that the profession of faith is a manifestation of that.

          Largely when you read the letters its clear that there's a message on throwing off your old lives, stop falling back into sins that lead to death (such as fornicating, drinking, lying, etc...), work out your salvation in fear and trembling. As well in our Lord's words. And that all this is part and parcel of being saved.
          It sounds like you believe salvation is a hard thing. A works-based thing. It isn't. Salvation is a gift, and gifts are not something that one works for. We can never be righteous enough to earn salvation, that's why it was given freely. It is clear in Paul's letters that after we've accepted Christ as Lord and after we've received his gift, that we must resolve to put away our old flesh nature, and renew the spirit of our minds to the new nature by the help of the Spirit. Paul talks about this in Romans chapter 7 and 8, and how it is the Spirit of Christ that helps us in our weakness.

          Can this be interpreted in a protestant way? Yes, I'm sure it can. I think such interpretations are deeply flawed. However we won't solve this by picking out a single quote from St. Paul. And I'm not interested in citing down and pitting line against line, that's never fruitful and never leads to anything good.
          The bottom line is that the implication that Protestants are somehow sneaking in some sort of Gnosticism is wrongheaded. If you didn't mean to imply that Protestants promote some form of Gnosticism in post #16, then it is a mystery as to why you would even bring Gnosticism up.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            Oh would you come off it? That high horse is a little tall for you.

            But sure if you're that curious about my answers Adrift, and you want me to answer one of them. Give me one.

            Not six though. If you give me six, I'll pick one, and answer that one.
            Oh stop with the melodramatics. It was a four sentence post. Its not like I bombarded you with a page full of questions.

            I'll repeat the questions:

            If no one teaches it, how is it a fairly popular understanding? Why did you even bring it up?

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            • #36
              This thread isn't really a place for me to expound on the entire view of the Roman Catholic Church regarding salvation. I happen to believe that few Christians will actually be saved compared to the number damned, which has been the normal view for Christians. That all Christians should be saved, has been a relatively recent phenomenon, even amongst Calvinists.

              We don't disagree that salvation is a gift, accepted on the part of the believer. We disagree that works are essential to salvation. We agree that its grace that saves us, but you believe its merited by belief, and I believe this grace allows us to live just lives and allows our work to have supernatural merit (the merit of the work on its own is basically nothing).

              The rest is a matter of interpretation, which can't be boiled down to a few quotes. I'm sorry Adrift, but it can't. Already you're gesturing outwards at the totality of the work of St. Paul like I do. I don't read him like that. Which was exactly the point I was trying to make.

              As for gnosticism, its a very, very, very common view among protestants. If you have a more nuanced view where a Christian without works, in reality has no faith, then that's infinitely better. Then we both agree that being a Christian, and what's needed to be saved, is more than to agree with the Apostles Creed.
              Last edited by Leonhard; 04-06-2015, 01:22 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                If no one teaches it, how is it a fairly popular understanding?
                I didn't say no one taught it. Luther didn't, and Calvin certainly didn't. Today? Any apologist and minister would reply to you that if you agree that Christ rose from the dead, you're saved. You've got the secret knowledge that God hides from the world in plain sight. You see the truth, you're saved... you sin, its not okay God doesn't like that, but you're saved.

                Take the protestant community my mother came from. There was a guy there who'd every sunday donate a huge chunk of money, wafting the bills in the air before putting them down. He prayed, he sang, he listened to the preacher and talked about the sermon afterwards and could quote the bible, he told people about how sinful we humans are and how merciful God must be. However it was also known that he beat his wife regularly at home, and he never repented of that, and never changed his ways.

                But he believed Christ had risen from the dead. He had the secret knowledge. He's saved.

                This smacks of gnosticism to me. It doesn't make Christianity gnostic, because the Bible doesn't promote this at all. This man should have been mortally afraid of his salvation and felt as if his feet were dangling over the pit. He never did and the scandal of it drove my mother from that community, and to this day any form of piety smacks to her of the same fakeness.

                I hope you see this and agree with me that Christ said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Jesus talked constantly about repenting, about turning away from sin "Go and sin no more." He warned people about their peril, and in particular he warned pious jews who were listening to him attentively that the road to damnation is wide, and to salvation narrow. And he didn't say this to people who scoffed at him, but to those listening attentively.

                Is salvation impossible, no, of course not. Is it hard? Its grace we can't merit, but only ask for and that God gives to those who keep asking. And Jesus often talked about asking God often for good things. But I don't think we can allow ourselves the delusion that we can maintain our sinful habits, and nurture them for the rest of our lives, while being disciples of Christ. If you ask me it'll be one or the other.

                Any view of Christianity that dispenses with discipleship and replaces it with the simple "I know God is real, and Christ rose from the dead, I have nothing to worry about from now on and forever." is a false cult.

                Why did you even bring it up?
                Because its a popular and false view.
                Last edited by Leonhard; 04-06-2015, 01:21 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  This thread isn't really a place for me to expound on the entire view of the Roman Catholic Church regarding salvation. I happen to believe that few Christians will actually be saved compared to the number damned, which has been the normal view for Christians. That all Christians should be saved, has been a relatively recent phenomenon, even amongst Calvinists.

                  We don't disagree that salvation is a gift, accepted on the part of the believer. We disagree that works are essential to salvation. We agree that its grace that saves us, but you believe its merited by belief, and I believe this grace allows us to live just lives and allows our work to have supernatural merit (the merit of the work on its own is basically nothing).

                  The rest is a matter of interpretation, which can't be boiled down to a few quotes. I'm sorry Adrift, but it can't. Already you're gesturing outwards at the totality of the work of St. Paul like I do. I don't read him like that. Which was exactly the point I was trying to make.

                  As for gnosticism, its a very, very, very common view among protestants. If you have a more nuanced view where a Christian without works, in reality has no faith, then that's infinitely better. Then we both agree that being a Christian, and what's needed to be saved, is more than to agree with the Apostles Creed.
                  There is no such thing as a Christian who isn't saved. To be a Christian one must be a follower of Christ. So absolutely I go with what you're calling a "nuanced view" that a faith that sees no works naturally following is not a faith at all. There are plenty of people who use the word "Christian" to describe themselves who are not in the least Christian, that is, a follower of Christ.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    There is no such thing as a Christian who isn't saved. To be a Christian one must be a follower of Christ. So absolutely I go with what you're calling a "nuanced view" that a faith that sees no works naturally following is not a faith at all. There are plenty of people who use the word "Christian" to describe themselves who are not in the least Christian, that is, a follower of Christ.
                    As for who to call Christian, this term can be wider or narrower, but I think it must be anyone who has some belief in Christ and some affirmation of the Apostles Creed.

                    Beyond that we agree.

                    Btw sorry for being miffed, it was just that character assasination based on me not answering all of your questions. I've just come back from other debates with multiples of them, and to be fair one of your posts was free of periods, with each sentence ending in a question mark.

                    I haven't implied anything about you based on how much or little you've answered. I respect that you're a grown person with a life on his own, and that you focus on something things you think are more important than others, and rely on me to press issues I think you left out.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I didn't say no one taught it. Luther didn't, and Calvin certainly didn't. Today? Any apologist and minister would reply to you that if you agree that Christ rose from the dead, you're saved. You've got the secret knowledge that God hides from the world in plain sight. You see the truth, you're saved... you sin, its not okay God doesn't like that, but you're saved.

                      Take the protestant community my mother came from. There was a guy there who'd every sunday donate a huge chunk of money, wafting the bills in the air before putting them down. He prayed, he sang, he listened to the preacher and talked about the sermon afterwards and could quote the bible, he told people about how sinful we humans are and how merciful God must be. However it was also known that he beat his wife regularly at home, and he never repented of that, and never changed his ways.

                      But he believed Christ had risen from the dead. He had the secret knowledge. He's saved.

                      This smacks of gnosticism to me. It doesn't make Christianity gnostic, because the Bible doesn't promote this at all. This man should have been mortally afraid of his salvation and felt as if his feet were dangling over the pit. He never did and the scandal of it drove my mother from that community, and to this day any form of piety smacks to her of the same fakeness.

                      I hope you see this and agree with me that Christ said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Jesus talked constantly about repenting, about turning away from sin "Go and sin no more." He warned people about their peril, and in particular he warned pious jews who were listening to him attentively that the road to damnation is wide, and to salvation narrow. And he didn't say this to people who scoffed at him, but to those listening attentively.

                      Is salvation impossible, no, of course not. Is it hard? Its grace we can't merit, but only ask for and that God gives to those who keep asking. And Jesus often talked about asking God often for good things. But I don't think we can allow ourselves the delusion that we can maintain our sinful habits, and nurture them for the rest of our lives, while being disciples of Christ. If you ask me it'll be one or the other.

                      Any view of Christianity that dispenses with discipleship and replaces it with the simple "I know God is real, and Christ rose from the dead, I have nothing to worry about from now on and forever." is a false cult.



                      Because its a popular and false view.
                      Leonhard, maybe this is a popular view in Denmark, but it certainly isn't in the US. At least, not in any Protestant church I've ever been to (and I've been to services across the US, and even in Germany). Protestantism widely and heavily teaches that repentance of sin is the very first step in making Jesus Lord. I don't know any church anywhere that teaches that you only have to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and that's all there is. In every salvation call, and in every one on one experience I've ever witnessed in my entire life as an orthodox Christian (and even when I wasn't so orthodox), recognition of one's sinfulness, and repentance of that sinfulness was the first step.

                      Now a view that I'm wholly aware of that is widely believed is that "If I do enough good works, and don't do too many really bad things, I'll go to heaven". I've seen this belief widely held among many people I know were raised in both Protestant and Roman Catholic households, but who don't really attend service more than twice a year, if that. Typically these same people don't know much about Jesus except that he's the bearded man who sits on a throne in the clouds.

                      Finally, I'm a little confused where you're getting the idea that believing Jesus was raised from the dead is some sort of secret knowledge. I don't know who you think teaches that, but I've never heard of it before.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        As for who to call Christian, this term can be wider or narrower, but I think it must be anyone who has some belief in Christ and some affirmation of the Apostles Creed.

                        Beyond that we agree.

                        Btw sorry for being miffed, it was just that character assasination based on me not answering all of your questions. I've just come back from other debates with multiples of them, and to be fair one of your posts was free of periods, with each sentence ending in a question mark.

                        I haven't implied anything about you based on how much or little you've answered. I respect that you're a grown person with a life on his own, and that you focus on something things you think are more important than others, and rely on me to press issues I think you left out.
                        I apologize too if I came off too demanding. I wasn't attempting to take 37818's side in your discussion with him. Half the time I can't figure out what he's talking about, the other half the time when I can figure out what he's saying I find his views to be unusual and sometimes unorthodox, but when you mentioned Gnostics and Protestants in the same paragraph warning flags went up for me. It seemed to me that you were throwing Protestantism under the bus in order to counter 37818's post by weakly linking Protestantism with some variation of Gnostic belief. Hopefully you can see why a Protestant may reject that idea. If that wasn't your intention then all is good.

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                        • #42
                          Pretty much amen to the rest you said.

                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Finally, I'm a little confused where you're getting the idea that believing Jesus was raised from the dead is some sort of secret knowledge. I don't know who you think teaches that, but I've never heard of it before.
                          Its a quib about where its starting to look like gnosticism. "The rest of the world are ignorant that Christ rose from the dead, but you believe it, and you're sorry about your sins... you still sleep with a girlfriend... well that's sinful and stop doing it, but you're saved. You believe the secret that the world doesn't know."

                          I was making a parody that I felt they might as well have been saying. That's what 90+% of danish protestants believe. And here I'm talking those who aren't atheists.

                          On second thought, it might just be especially bad over here.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Pretty much amen to the rest you said.



                            Its a quib about where its starting to look like gnosticism. "The rest of the world are ignorant that Christ rose from the dead, but you believe it, and you're sorry about your sins... you still sleep with a girlfriend... well that's sinful and stop doing it, but you're saved. You believe the secret that the world doesn't know."

                            I was making a parody that I felt they might as well have been saying. That's what 90+% of danish protestants believe. And here I'm talking those who aren't atheists.

                            On second thought, it might just be especially bad over here.
                            Ok, fair enough. Sounds like Denmark is due for revival (well, I suppose that's true for all the West).

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Although they are peaceful too me the mormons are a cult. I feel this way because of a couple reasons. One it is taught by them that the African race are descendants of Cain and because of Cains sin they were turned black. This is religious sponsored racism. I find the explanation that native Americans are a lost semetic tribe of isreal to be far fetched. The Semites are not the ancestors of all other races. This is why the Genesis story only goes back 6 or 10 thousand years at most.I would be willing to believe there were two Adams. one the Grandfather of the semetic people ant the older the grandfather of the human race.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Abu Njoroge View Post
                                Although they are peaceful too me the mormons are a cult. I feel this way because of a couple reasons. One it is taught by them that the African race are descendants of Cain and because of Cains sin they were turned black. This is religious sponsored racism. I find the explanation that native Americans are a lost semetic tribe of isreal to be far fetched. The Semites are not the ancestors of all other races. This is why the Genesis story only goes back 6 or 10 thousand years at most.I would be willing to believe there were two Adams. one the Grandfather of the semetic people ant the older the grandfather of the human race.
                                Perhaps all mormons dont believe the Cain theory? I hope not because Ive had a lot of positive talks with Mormons in my home town.

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