Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567
Results 61 to 63 of 63

Thread: Recognizing the false Christian cults.

  1. #61
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    So. California
    Faith
    Nontraditional Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,092
    Amen (Given)
    810
    Amen (Received)
    440
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I do not think that Genesis 15:6 says what you want it to say.

    Q: According to Genesis 15:6 is Abraham righteous, or is it belief that is righteous?
    And flowing from that answer, is Paul in saying "faith was reckoned for righteousness" (Rom 4:5,9), making a claim that "a person's faith makes him righteous," or is he making a claim that a person, whether circumcised or not, can be righteous?
    Rom 4:9 ελογισθη τω αβρααμ ηπιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην - to Abraham, his faith was reckoned unto/for/toward righteousness ... Nothing is directly reckoned righteous in that statement: not faith, and certainly not Abraham.
    λογιζεται η πιστις αυτου εις δικαιοσυνην (v4) ... faith gets evaluated
    (v9) ελογισθη τω αβρααμ η πιστις εις δικαιοσυνην (v9) faith got evaluated
    Romans 4:1-5, ". . . What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [Genesis 15:6 is being referenced] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." Genesis 15:6, ". . . And he believed Jehovah; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. . . ."

    The record stands in evidence. And without righteousness being counted to Abraham by faith without works - Abraham's later work (Genesis 22:12) could not to had merit, but it did in fulfillment of that faith (James 2:23). Not the other way around. The faith without works preceded its work. (Genesis 15:6 prior to Genesis 22:12).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #62
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    DownUnder
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,658
    Amen (Given)
    151
    Amen (Received)
    548
    If you don't want to accept that Abraham was not declared righteous because he believed - despite the scriptural record - there is nothing to be done on that account.

    So on to the next point:

    Where does the scripture say that a man is deemed righteous just because he believes? Those to whom Jesus declares "I never knew you" clearly had faith - they were able to perform mighty deeds in his name. Those who did not believe (the seven sons of Sceva, for example) could not perform mighty deeds in Christ's name.

    Where does scripture declare that faith gives rise to good works? Does it not rather say that works perfect faith?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. #63
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    So. California
    Faith
    Nontraditional Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,092
    Amen (Given)
    810
    Amen (Received)
    440
    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    If you don't want to accept that Abraham was not declared righteous because he believed - despite the scriptural record - there is nothing to be done on that account.

    So on to the next point:

    Where does the scripture say that a man is deemed righteous just because he believes?
    ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
    ". . . Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. . . ." -- Romans 3:25-26.
    ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. . . ." -- John 5:24.
    ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ." -- John 6:47.
    Then there is John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 5:13 and more.

    Those to whom Jesus declares "I never knew you" clearly had faith - they were able to perform mighty deeds in his name.
    No. Jesus argued that they were NOT doing God's will, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . ." It was their claims of doing works, saying, "have we not?" Jesus argued, "ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23.)

    Those who did not believe (the seven sons of Sceva, for example) could not perform mighty deeds in Christ's name.
    (Acts 19:13-17.)

    Where does scripture declare that faith gives rise to good works?
    ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. . . ."


    Does it not rather say that works perfect faith?
    (James 2:22-23, Genesis 22:12.)

    You see, the works of sin prevent works from counting. (". . . wages of sin . . . " Romans 6:23.) Only after forgiveness as an unmerited gift can any good works have any merit.
    Last edited by 37818; 01-11-2018 at 01:45 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •