The 7th Question the Arminian can't answer

[Colossians]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'.
Most notably we saw his hollow man of "agent causation" which was supposed to tell us why one person makes the infinitely-higher-quality decision of choosing for eternal heaven, and why another makes the woeful one of choosing torture for eternity: we were told this was "just because", that ultimately there was no reason, that each decision was just as valid.
When we cross-examined the Arminian as to just what this 'agent causation' was, we drew a blank: he was unable to define it, unable to tell us where it resided, unable to tell us how it was unaffected by the 'fabric' of the agent to whom it belonged, and unwilling. When we pointed out that all decisions are made according to perceived benefit, and that perceived benefit is subject to perception, and that perception is the product of how one is made by one's Maker, we got a "huh?"

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years. It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism by His revealing the truth of the latter to me through a very specific portion of scripture. As C H Spurgeon said: "when I discovered predestination, I discovered the clue to the secret of God".





We now come to the 7th question:
You tell us that God loves everyone equally: He loves, and still loves Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, and the most unrepentant Satanist, just as much as John the Baptist: He will love those in hell just as much as those in heaven.
According to you, it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that any soul ends up in hell for eternity. According to you, the salvation of any soul is paramount, and ranks equally with the greatest things of God, and with the greatest desires in your life.
You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.
The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy. But you..... the sky is the limit: you should feel mighty uncomfortable when you read that you will be judged by the words of your mouth.
The Question:
Why the hypocrisy?


(We look forward to your excuses, which we imaging will sound similar to those of the Jew when he explains why he lives in Manhattan while lauding the virtues of 'the promised land'. And then we look forward to more Trivial Pursuit in cyberspace while your next-door neighbour heads toward hell.)

[Xmansmommy]

The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy.

That one sentence speaks more about your heart and mind than you could even possibly imagine. I guess it just goes to show how our doctrine can and indeed does, permeate their lives. All you've done here Colossians, is confirm what we Arminians have known all along....that in the Calvinist paradigm, there is no real need for evangelism, to fulfill God's command to go and preach the gospel of the kindgom of God. And that there is true apathy toward God's desire for obedience to crucify our flesh . Shame you can't see it.

[seer]

That one sentence speaks more about your heart and mind than you could even possibly imagine. I guess it just goes to show how our doctrine can and indeed does, permeate their lives. All you've done here Colossians, is confirm what we Arminians have known all along....that in the Calvinist paradigm, there is no real need for evangelism, to fulfill God's command to go and preach the gospel of the kindgom of God. And that there is true apathy toward God's desire for obedience to crucify our flesh . Shame you can't see it.

Amen sis. But I guess it's kind of cool - stay home, watch the tube, do a little boating - it doesn't matter - the elect will get saved anyway...

[geebob]

The Arminian position is an immature one,

According to you, it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that any soul ends up in hell for eternity.

The arminian knows he is immature. I know I am not perfect because I know as you say that it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that anyone be damned and I haven't done as much as I should given my gifts and scope.

So colossians, you are perfect then? I say you are immature for the same reason we are. In this issue, we are to love our neighbor as ourself and hence desire their salvation as much as our own. So colossians, don't you think it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that your neighbor should be damned? Isn't that how you would feel if you were damned?

The issue isn't that we are immature and you are not. It's that we know we are immature and your doctrine of reprobation has hidden your immaturity from your own eyes if you don't think that you are to love your neighbor as yourself and desire his salvation as much as your own and despise what anything that hinders that. And if you follow that commandment from Jesus, then you will despise the doctrine of reprobation as it suggests that it is by God's omission of grace as surely as you would despise such a thing for yourself.

Collosions, before asserting your spritual superiority to us, please tell me, do you love your neighbor as yourself? And if you love them as yourself, how do you feel about their reprobation as if it were your own? How do you feel about the idea that you should be given over to a state of eternal torment and hatred for God with no chance for escape because God refuses to grant you grace that would give you that chance.

Maybe I'm a hypocrite. So am I to abandon the second greatest commandment and embrace the doctrine of reprobation with you to avoid hypocrisy or should I strive for spiritual maturity in consistency with a love for my neighbor as if it were a love for myself and seek their salvation?

[seer]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'.
Most notably we saw his hollow man of "agent causation" which was supposed to tell us why one person makes the infinitely-higher-quality decision of choosing for eternal heaven, and why another makes the woeful one of choosing torture for eternity: we were told this was "just because", that ultimately there was no reason, that each decision was just as valid.
When we cross-examined the Arminian as to just what this 'agent causation' was, we drew a blank: he was unable to define it, unable to tell us where it resided, unable to tell us how it was unaffected by the 'fabric' of the agent to whom it belonged, and unwilling. When we pointed out that all decisions are made according to perceived benefit, and that perceived benefit is subject to perception, and that perception is the product of how one is made by one's Maker, we got a "huh?"

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years. It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism by His revealing the truth of the latter to me through a very specific portion of scripture. As C H Spurgeon said: "when I discovered predestination, I discovered the clue to the secret of God".





We now come to the 7th question:
You tell us that God loves everyone equally: He loves, and still loves Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, and the most unrepentant Satanist, just as much as John the Baptist: He will love those in hell just as much as those in heaven.
According to you, it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that any soul ends up in hell for eternity. According to you, the salvation of any soul is paramount, and ranks equally with the greatest things of God, and with the greatest desires in your life.
You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.
The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy. But you..... the sky is the limit: you should feel mighty uncomfortable when you read that you will be judged by the words of your mouth.
The Question:
Why the hypocrisy?


(We look forward to your excuses, which we imaging will sound similar to those of the Jew when he explains why he lives in Manhattan while lauding the virtues of 'the promised land'. And then we look forward to more Trivial Pursuit in cyberspace while your next-door neighbour heads toward hell.)

One of the most arrogant posts I've ever seen from one claiming Christ as His Lord. Take heed brother, lest you fall...

[themuzicman]

Wow... a perfect 0-7. You've really exposed your ignorance and arrogance, Colossians. Having destroyed all your credibility, are you really going to continue to show your handle around here?

Michael

[semmie]

If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.

this was just silly.

so what is it you really want to know? do you want to know why we aren't calvinists? is that it? or do you want to know why we don't fall down when you post and exclaim what a brilliant defender of your position you are?

you know, Colossi...there are a good number of calvinists i have a great deal of respect for. they are the ones who've never felt so threatened by me that they had to make up silly statements like these to get me to feel guilty for not being a calvinist.

it may work for you on one or two arminians...folks who struggle and are trying to learn. but let's be real. you do a great injustice to those you would scare into adhering to one or another view.

now...ask a question you want answered, and i'm sure there are several around here who will oblige you (or would have, if you hadn't already approached them with such accusation and hostility).

be at peace, and count your weakest brother as your strongest--
~sarah

[Bill the Cat]

Colossians,

if you worked for a Calvinist apologetic business, and I were the boss, I'd have 2 words for you...

:trump:

[semmie]

Colossians,

if you worked for a Calvinist apologetic business, and I were the boss, I'd have 2 words for you...

:trump:

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Colossians]
You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.

• Edited by a Moderator •

[Xmansmommy]

mickiel, I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. Are you a Christian? Are you not a Christian? Just what is your profession of faith?

[mickiel]

mickiel, I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. Are you a Christian? Are you not a Christian? Just what is your profession of faith?

• Edited by a Moderator •

[Xmansmommy]

• Edited by a Moderator •

May I ask what your definition of a Christian is?

• Edited by a Moderator •

I wasn't asking you to profess your faith to me...I was simply asking what is the object of your faith so I might better understand you. If it's God and Jesus, in what way are you not a Christian yourself?

• Edited by a Moderator •

Understandable.

• Edited by a Moderator •

The reason I've asked the original question and these following is because I do have a true desire to get into your mind. Please don't be so hasty in your judgement of my motives. I have nothing to hide or nothing to gain except understanding, which is what I seek. Thank you for the dialogue.

God bless,
Linda

[Pottersclay]

T'was a time... I could not see
Words I spoke...a clanging sound
I was hollow... 'til He filled me
Adam lost...now is found

by: Ex-hollow man

I love these discussions thanks everyone

[betzerg]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'.
Most notably we saw his hollow man of "agent causation" which was supposed to tell us why one person makes the infinitely-higher-quality decision of choosing for eternal heaven, and why another makes the woeful one of choosing torture for eternity: we were told this was "just because", that ultimately there was no reason, that each decision was just as valid.
When we cross-examined the Arminian as to just what this 'agent causation' was, we drew a blank: he was unable to define it, unable to tell us where it resided, unable to tell us how it was unaffected by the 'fabric' of the agent to whom it belonged, and unwilling. When we pointed out that all decisions are made according to perceived benefit, and that perceived benefit is subject to perception, and that perception is the product of how one is made by one's Maker, we got a "huh?"

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years. It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism by His revealing the truth of the latter to me through a very specific portion of scripture. As C H Spurgeon said: "when I discovered predestination, I discovered the clue to the secret of God".





We now come to the 7th question:
You tell us that God loves everyone equally: He loves, and still loves Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, and the most unrepentant Satanist, just as much as John the Baptist: He will love those in hell just as much as those in heaven.
According to you, it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that any soul ends up in hell for eternity. According to you, the salvation of any soul is paramount, and ranks equally with the greatest things of God, and with the greatest desires in your life.
You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.
The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy. But you..... the sky is the limit: you should feel mighty uncomfortable when you read that you will be judged by the words of your mouth.
The Question:
Why the hypocrisy?


(We look forward to your excuses, which we imaging will sound similar to those of the Jew when he explains why he lives in Manhattan while lauding the virtues of 'the promised land'. And then we look forward to more Trivial Pursuit in cyberspace while your next-door neighbour heads toward hell.)

What a ridiculous concept that G-d loves everyone equally and that Hitler is loved by G-d. Ever read PS. 11:5 The L-rd trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that LOVES VIOLENCE, HIS sould hateth.


G-d did not "hate" Hitler as a child...but as Hitler CHOSE to love violence and be an evil g-dhater then G-d's affections were thwarted.

Speaking of HITLER...did G-d ordain Hitler to kill millions of jews?

The issue is not REALLY about the lOVE and mercy of G-d...It has more to do with the JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUS JUDEMENT of G-d. Can G-d send a man to eternal torment for eternity when it was G-d's arbitrary decision to make a man reject HIM?

Ridiculous idea that G-d is such as this!

G-d gave all men free will in the area of moral decisions. It is the justice of G-d that initiaties this.

Good luck with your theology...it needs a little work.

Shalom,

BETZER