The 7th Question the Arminian can't answer

[john-philip]

Yay, the seventh question has finally arrived!



:jazzband:

:rapper:

:rmfo:


And I was getting worried.





Theologyweb 3:16
And at the time the seventh question sounded, and there was much rejoicing and singing for the day had now come when the dragon (Colossians) would ask no more questions. And peace and sanity and relief filled the hearts and minds of TWebbers. Forever and ever. Amen.

[Xavier]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

Hrmn... Must have missed that.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'.

Actually, we've seen several Arminians offer up viable answers only to be ignored... Guess our noble truth-seeking Calvinist friend wasn't up for his own challenge.

The REAL fun is of course that the last question is based on a strawman...

[micah4]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'.
Most notably we saw his hollow man of "agent causation" which was supposed to tell us why one person makes the infinitely-higher-quality decision of choosing for eternal heaven, and why another makes the woeful one of choosing torture for eternity: we were told this was "just because", that ultimately there was no reason, that each decision was just as valid.
When we cross-examined the Arminian as to just what this 'agent causation' was, we drew a blank: he was unable to define it, unable to tell us where it resided, unable to tell us how it was unaffected by the 'fabric' of the agent to whom it belonged, and unwilling. When we pointed out that all decisions are made according to perceived benefit, and that perceived benefit is subject to perception, and that perception is the product of how one is made by one's Maker, we got a "huh?"

I know colossians posts this same tripe on many boards; I wonder which one this happened on? I don't remember seeing it here.

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years. It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism

1982? Wow, and after reading your posts I had you pegged for not possibly being a day over 17.

You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.

And so how is this different for you, Col?

Is it true that "according to you" watching television can be compared to or judged of more value than the salvation of one soul?

Isn't it just as true that the calvinist claims that he is commanded to preach the gospel to every person? If so, why isn't this charge equally as serious to the calvinist as it is to the arminian?

I agree with what others have said; this seems like a flat out admission of what is so commonly denied by the calvinists- that calvinism tends to minimize the importance and urgency of evangelism. If colossians denies the truth of this, then he denies the entire basis of his question.

The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy.

Hooo boy. If there were smiley face with a lightning bolt striking him down from heaven, it would go here.

[Bill the Cat]

IHooo boy. If there were smiley face with a lightning bolt striking him down from heaven, it would go here.

Ya mean like this?? :lightning:

[FlimFlamboyant]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

What about Biblical? Oops, that's right, you're the one with the anointing of the Holy Spirit so you don't need that.

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years. It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism by His revealing the truth of the latter to me through a very specific portion of scripture.

And it was evidently by God's election that you used to be an immature Arminian, yes? You're awful snide for a guy who wouldn't be where he is if it weren't for "the grace of God".

We now come to the 7th question:
...
You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.
If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.

To a large degree, you're right about that. We're all hypocrites. We're also all sinners, and were thus in dire need of a savior. Do you actually have something new and provocative to tell us?

The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy.

No, the hardline Calvinist will only be judged for a failure to do his job as an ambassador for Christ, because he denies that the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth", and therefore doesn't see the need to preach the gospel at all.

The Question: Why the hypocrisy?

We're selfish, lazy, and we reside in fleshly bodies that serve the law of sin. Gee whiz, even you should know that. But before your head explodes, perhaps you should take a moment and think about what you're doing. By your theology, you were once predestined to believe in "free will". By that same token, we are also predestined to believe the same. Yet here you are, boasting of your knowledge and belittling those who don't agree. Why are you so hard-pressed to try to change something that was instituted by God's divine election? Do you presume to "fight against God" (Acts 5:39) and his sovereign choice? Why don't you just wait for God to select us to make that change at the time that he has appropriated for us, if he in fact has chosen to do so at all?

Your attitude and your theology don't add up. Why the hypocrisy?

[mikka]

Another excellent question Colossians!!!!

As usual it went straight over their heads shown by the nature of their predicktable responses - with a possible exception to flimflam, who doesn't seem to mind being a hypocrite.

It's really awesome how the mysteries of God are so beautiful and simple once His Grace has revealed them to our us, we wonder why we hadn't seen that particular revelation before.

I think the responses to these series of questions has reaffirmed to me how insidiously ugly the old man is and how hard he will try to claim lordship and resist Jesus Christ.

As the Mysteries of God are so beautiful and simple once revealed to us and yet another brother can be completely blind to them, really shows that it by Grace that we stand.

Praise God!

[Xavier]

Another excellent question Colossians!!!!

As usual it went straight over their heads shown by the nature of their predicktable responses

Dern those Arminians who are SO stupid they don't even know what THEY are supposed to believe...

It's really awesome to see someone to proclaim God is great, God is good and ignore the truth all the way through.

[Sheepdog]

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[Colossians]

So far no answers to the question, except Flim Flam, who admitted to the hypocrisy the thread declares of the Arminian position, but did not offer a remedy such as "You're right, I'm going to stop telling Christians on the internet that God wants all non-Christians to be saved, and actually go out there and spend every available minute preaching to the non-Christians I'm talking about".

[Xavier]

So far no answers to the question, except Flim Flam, who admitted to the hypocrisy the thread declares of the Arminian position, but did not offer a remedy such as "You're right, I'm going to stop telling Christians on the internet that God wants all non-Christians to be saved, and actually go out there and spend every available minute preaching to the non-Christians I'm talking about".

Can you please stick your fingers in your ears and scream louder please? I'm not quite sure you can't hear anyone else just yet...

[{Tim}]

Can you please stick your fingers in your ears and scream louder please? I'm not quite sure you can't hear anyone else just yet...

[Kevin Wayne]

Another excellent question Colossians!!!!

As usual it went straight over their heads shown by the nature of their predicktable responses - with a possible exception to flimflam, who doesn't seem to mind being a hypocrite.

It's really awesome how the mysteries of God are so beautiful and simple once His Grace has revealed them to our us, we wonder why we hadn't seen that particular revelation before.

I think the responses to these series of questions has reaffirmed to me how insidiously ugly the old man is and how hard he will try to claim lordship and resist Jesus Christ.

As the Mysteries of God are so beautiful and simple once revealed to us and yet another brother can be completely blind to them, really shows that it by Grace that we stand.

Praise God!

I thought it was illegal to go aorund posting under two ID's 'round here...

[studyhound]

I thought it was illegal to go aorund posting under two ID's 'round here...

[Sheepdog]

We have shown that the Arminian doctrine has enormous holes in it, both philosophical and pragmatic.

not really. all we have found was that you tend to hightail it and start a new thread when you get smoked in existing "question" threats.

And we have seen the Arminian on this site huff and bluff his way through to nowhere: we have seen him come up with some amazing creativity in order to make his scheme of things 'fit'. ...

oh here we go with the rhetoric. *snip snip*

The Arminian position is an immature one, both socially and spiritually. I know, I was one for years.

not really. common "arminianism," which many evangelicals hold to because they don't know better, is an immature position. but it really isn't a systematic theology, as much as it's a hodge podge of semipelagianism, catchy one-liners, and a dash of Piper and Sproul here and there. there is no coherency in the vast majority of Christian "thought" today.

on the other hand, Classic Arminianism is a very mature position, and based on how i've observed yourself and other Calvinists conduct yourself, it indeed seems to be the position of those who are more mature.

It was by the grace of God in about 1982 that I moved from Arminianism to Calvinism by His revealing the truth of the latter to me through a very specific portion of scripture. As C H Spurgeon said: "when I discovered predestination, I discovered the clue to the secret of God".

with all due respect, i sincerely doubt you were an Arminian in the classic sense. for if you were, you would know better than to make some of the silly objections you have. actually, case in point:

We now come to the 7th question:
You tell us that God loves everyone equally: He loves, and still loves Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, and the most unrepentant Satanist, just as much as John the Baptist: He will love those in hell just as much as those in heaven.

this is not necessarily Arminianism, though many Arminians believe that. While we do accept that it is Biblical and true that God loves everyone, I don't see a reason to assent to the assumption that He loves all equally.

According to you, it is a tragedy of infinite proportions that any soul ends up in hell for eternity.

it's sad, but just. Arminians do not protest that all people, Christians included, deserve the wrath of God. we don't deserve God's grace, and in fact by definition grace cannot be deserved.

According to you, the salvation of any soul is paramount, and ranks equally with the greatest things of God, and with the greatest desires in your life.

umm yeah, and? we kind of got that trait from Jesus, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

You might have convinced us were it not for one thing: your hypocrisy: you are entertaining yourself on the internet with pedantic arguments when you could be out door-knocking, distributing evangelical literature, or on your knees praying for your next-door neighbour: you are a man playing Trivial Pursuit while watching Rome burn.

do you know who all is elect, Colossians? did God tell you if your neighbor is elect? because if He didn't, you are no better off than us. as a Calvinist you are no less oblidged to preach the message to ever creature.

If you are to be taken seriously, you need to be spending every available second working toward the salvation of souls, and denying yourself the pleasures of watching television/dvds, dating, playing golf, going for drives in the country, arguing about politics, enjoying fine restaurants, celebrating birthdays, and the list is endless, for according to you, none of these things can be compared to the salvation of even one soul.

well, it's not just according to us. the parables of the lost sheep, lost talent, and progical son speak to that affect.

The Calvinist will never be judged for hypocrisy.

why not? so far every finger you have pointed at us can be pointed right back at you.

are you saying it is not a part of Calvinism to share the gospel? if that is so, then you are definitely most consistent. however if so, the rest of Christendom has no reason to listen to freeloaders like you.

But you..... the sky is the limit: you should feel mighty uncomfortable when you read that you will be judged by the words of your mouth.
The Question:
Why the hypocrisy?

well, now that we get past the rhetoric, here is a simple answer: what hypocracy?

God does indeed love all people, and desires that none shall perish but all come to repentance. yet, not all will. some people simply will refuse to be reached. we can't do much about that. but what we can do is obey Jesus in making disciples of the nations.

does that mean you have to spend every waking hour witnessing to people? not really. the command is to just go and do it. rather, there is much more to obediance to God than simply evangelism. evangelism is but one part of a Christian's life.

now, i do hold to an idea that is perculiar to me. That doesn't mean other people don't believe the same (some probably do.... in fact i think i'm indebted to William Lane Craig for this), but simply that this is not necessary to Arminian doctrine. I believe that God will, one way or another, reach all those who would be saved if they were to hear the gospel. so, perhaps i may fail to evangelize to someone: that by no means fails to reflect reality for myself-- we all have missed opportunities. and if you don't think you have, there is nothing i could do about such arrogance!!! but where i fail, God may simply send another Christian to share the gospel to them. that way, another person's salvation is not dependant on my own faithfulness: it is genuinely dependant only on God's grace through the faith of the given sinner. i think we both would agree that we don't have any grace to add, as we are only messengers.

[Xmansmommy]

Well said Sheepy!