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Thread: Egyptian Artifacts Discovered in Israel Change Everything We Know About Passover

  1. #11
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    There are digging in the wrong place. There were only 144,000 Israelites who were saved, or that could be the total of wicked and the good Israelites. At most there were a half million. It get this by reading the Revelations of Jesus to John, i.e. Revelation(s). There seems to be Israelites in Egypt after the New Testament and the destruction of the temple. But there is no mention of travels to Egypt. I suspect Ethopia and Egypt made the Hindu colony known as India. As I have said before, there is a lot of Syrian-Canaan area in Modern Israel. It has implications, but they are not what you suspect.

    And I don't know of any buildings before the time of Messiah Yeshu. All of this stuff is later than expected. Carbon date the wood. I might believe the results, but it will be the closest to the actual date.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The evidence indicates that Egypt was in control of what we call Palestine and more today. This does not fit the Biblical account of Exodus.
    The Egyptians only controlled the coastal area (Western Palestine), and never the Eastern part that the Pentateuch, Joshua, and Judges describe as being taken (more likely, temporarily paralyzed as Kenneth Kitchen notes). The mere logistics and things such as the military itinerary of Merneptah (late 13th century BC) show that the areas that the Egyptians had control of are not mentioned as taken by Joshua and Judges, as William Dever notes in a BAR lecture. The political situation in Canaan in the 14th century BC was not one of control, but one of decimation by invaders called Hapiru as the Amarna letters tell us. Also, Thutmose IV's campaigns suddenly stop around the middle of the 15th century BC and has led many to speculate he was the Pharaoh of the Exodus (in that time period it wasn't customary to name the Pharaoh, unlike the later books of the Bible such as 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc). A direct link to Hebrew and Hapiru as the etymology isn't really favored one way or the other by scholars. Anson Rainey rejects all notions that the Hapiru=Hebrews (BAR 34:06, Nov/Dec 2008, "Shasu or Habiru"). He notes that the Hapiru were not a specific ethnic group, but a social class (like slave) and that they long predated the Israelites. However, this ignores the fact that any foreign, nomadic tribe could be called this more as a slur than a technical designation, much like Jesus is called a Samaritan in John 8:48. Moreover, he notes that in Ugarit, p and b are frequently interchanged, but I can't remember why he rejected this as a possible change from Hapiru to Habiru to Hebrew. Needless to say, if you try and find an alternate etymology for Hebrew, you don't really come up with anything.

    Most of the dating your source refers to is from 1500-1000 BC which is pretty broad, when the Exodus took only 40 years and caused a huge but ultimately temporary setback for the Egyptians and their Canaanite vassals. The Egyptians never really had strong control over the Levant after Thutmose IV's campaigns which ended in the 1460's BC (maybe until c.1420 BC they had a good grip). This is evident from the constant revolts by Canaanite cities mentioned in the Amarna letters, notably Labayu's (1350's BC). The Egyptian culture was always a big influence on Canaan down to the time of the Assyrians. Even in Sennacherib's day, 700 BC, Egypt was a (weak) shoulder to cry on. An Egyptian outpost in no way disproves the Exodus/Joshua's conquest, and the culture was there but mostly through trade until Ramses the Great reconquered much of it in the 12th century BC. The Egyptians have almost no role in Joshua-Judges because they never went to the highlands where the Israelites were. And scarabs were often reused for centuries afterwards, unless they were from someone who received a memoria damnatiae such as Hatshepsut, so 15th-14th century BC scarabs usually equals 15th-12th century BC dating anyway.
    Last edited by Cornelius; 04-14-2015 at 07:52 AM.

  3. #13
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornelius View Post
    The Egyptians only controlled the coastal area (Western Palestine), and never the Eastern part that the Pentateuch, Joshua, and Judges describe as being taken (more likely, temporarily paralyzed as Kenneth Kitchen notes). The mere logistics and things such as the military itinerary of Merneptah (late 13th century BC) show that the areas that the Egyptians had control of are not mentioned as taken by Joshua and Judges, as William Dever notes in a BAR lecture. The political situation in Canaan in the 14th century BC was not one of control, but one of decimation by invaders called Hapiru as the Amarna letters tell us. Also, Thutmose IV's campaigns suddenly stop around the middle of the 15th century BC and has led many to speculate he was the Pharaoh of the Exodus (in that time period it wasn't customary to name the Pharaoh, unlike the later books of the Bible such as 1-2 Kings, Chronicles, etc). A direct link to Hebrew and Hapiru as the etymology isn't really favored one way or the other by scholars. Anson Rainey rejects all notions that the Hapiru=Hebrews (BAR 34:06, Nov/Dec 2008, "Shasu or Habiru"). He notes that the Hapiru were not a specific ethnic group, but a social class (like slave) and that they long predated the Israelites. However, this ignores the fact that any foreign, nomadic tribe could be called this more as a slur than a technical designation, much like Jesus is called a Samaritan in John 8:48. Moreover, he notes that in Ugarit, p and b are frequently interchanged, but I can't remember why he rejected this as a possible change from Hapiru to Habiru to Hebrew. Needless to say, if you try and find an alternate etymology for Hebrew, you don't really come up with anything.

    Most of the dating your source refers to is from 1500-1000 BC which is pretty broad, when the Exodus took only 40 years and caused a huge but ultimately temporary setback for the Egyptians and their Canaanite vassals. The Egyptians never really had strong control over the Levant after Thutmose IV's campaigns which ended in the 1460's BC (maybe until c.1420 BC they had a good grip). This is evident from the constant revolts by Canaanite cities mentioned in the Amarna letters, notably Labayu's (1350's BC). The Egyptian culture was always a big influence on Canaan down to the time of the Assyrians. Even in Sennacherib's day, 700 BC, Egypt was a (weak) shoulder to cry on. An Egyptian outpost in no way disproves the Exodus/Joshua's conquest, and the culture was there but mostly through trade until Ramses the Great reconquered much of it in the 12th century BC. The Egyptians have almost no role in Joshua-Judges because they never went to the highlands where the Israelites were. And scarabs were often reused for centuries afterwards, unless they were from someone who received a memoria damnatiae such as Hatshepsut, so 15th-14th century BC scarabs usually equals 15th-12th century BC dating anyway.
    The Negev where this find occurred is not in the coastal regions, but in the hill country of what was Judah.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The Negev where this find occurred is not in the coastal regions, but in the hill country of what was Judah.
    Do you even know the difference between Judah, Syria, Egypt, Philistine, and Phoenicia?

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    Do you even know the difference between Judah, Syria, Egypt, Philistine, and Phoenicia?
    Yes. The Northern Negev Desert begins in the hills of what was Judah west of the Dead Sea and extends south to the Red Sea.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-14-2015 at 08:06 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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