Sex And The Bible

[Socrates]

Today @ 12:46 PM post located here
Sher:

Give a look in the Frat about how men are complaining that they aren't mind readers. This is a big issue, Ladies! How many times do we roll our eyes, or gently leave hints ... and whine and moan to each other when they don't pick them up? How effective is that? Does complaining to girlfriends, no matter how cathartic, really do *anything* to resolve the problem?

Ladies, listen to Sher! As far as we men are concerned:

Subtle hints don't work.
Normal hints don't work.
Obvious hints don't work!

Just ask us for what you want!! :bv:

[Alien]

Good points, Sher. But ....

Forgive me for being blunt but if something hurts or isn't proper speak up! If something is fantastic but sporatic ... speak up ... give compliments with the critical comments ... be kind but firm. Sometimes the man just needs some prodding in the right direction

.... be gentle with the prodding, OK? For all the macho image, we're very sensitive when it comes to this stuff. There's nothing that turns a man off quicker than a perceived rejection. If the prods work, then great, but if he seems to be resisting try praising the good stuff to build up his ego, then gently introducing the changes you want. If all this seems too much like hard work, or even demeaning to your pride, remember there could be a little boy inside that big lunk that is desperately afraid of failing at something that he has been told over and over again is essential to his manhood. You'll be well rewarded for your efforts.

(Or if this doesn't work, try a hefty kick in the .... ).

Give a look in the Frat about how men are complaining that they aren't mind readers. This is a big issue, Ladies! How many times do we roll our eyes, or gently leave hints ... and whine and moan to each other when they don't pick them up? How effective is that? Does complaining to girlfriends, no matter how cathartic, really do *anything* to resolve the problem?

Yah. We're not too big in the subtlety department, I'm afraid.

[Sher]

Today @ 11:50 AM post located here
Alien:

Good points, Sher. But ....

.... be gentle with the prodding, OK? For all the macho image, we're very sensitive when it comes to this stuff. There's nothing that turns a man off quicker than a perceived rejection. If the prods work, then great, but if he seems to be resisting try praising the good stuff to build up his ego, then gently introducing the changes you want. If all this seems too much like hard work, or even demeaning to your pride, remember there could be a little boy inside that big lunk that is desperately afraid of failing at something that he has been told over and over again is essential to his manhood. You'll be well rewarded for your efforts.

Good points ... and good male perspective ... (but I did say "kind") ...

From the experience of open communication ... anyone can take or leave it ... but it works, believe me.

My main issue is that we are NOT teaching this to the ladies of the generations that are following us ... or the young men for that matter

... I've been very open with my son ... but find that this is unusual for some reason. Why in a society, so entrenched in sexual misconduct, are we not preparing our children to counter the erroneous things they will learn on the streets? Why aren't we giving them the benefits taught from our experience in these areas?

(Or if this doesn't work, try a hefty kick in the .... ).

Ow ... LOL!

Yah. We're not too big in the subtlety department, I'm afraid.

[Alien]

Today @ 09:59 AM post located here
Sher:
Good points ... and good male perspective ... (but I did say "kind") ...

From the experience of open communication ... anyone can take or leave it ... but it works, believe me.

Oh yes, I'm sure this has worked for you in your marriage and I wasn't trying to be critical, just adding a small caveat.

And my main issue is that we are NOT teaching this to the ladies of the generations that are following us ... or the young men for that matter

... I've been very open with my son ... but find that this is unusual for some reason. Why in a society, so entrenched in sexual misconduct, are we not preparing our children to counter the erroneous things they will learn on the streets? Why aren't we giving them the benefits taught from our experience in these areas?

See my response to Jardin. I really couldn't agree with you more. And I applaud your speaking out so well.

[JardinPrayer]

My sincere thanks to Alien and Sher for their insightful, thoughtful, genuinely pro-active comments in this thread. I have to wonder where the folks that intiated this thread have gone and whether they, perhaps, have benefited from what has been discussed here.

As for contributors who say things like "Women have control at all stages of the process," I just submit this:

Peace,
Jardin

[JardinPrayer]

Also, to Socrates:

These are well known facts in the female realm. But, when juxtaposed with the comments Alien made about the fragility of the male ego and the little boy inside, it can make for choppy waters to navigate!

As for Sher's comments about speaking up and teaching...I wish I could comment the way I really want to about this. Suffice it to say that sometimes there are obstacles to this process that even the best intentions on the part of both partners cannot overcome. T'would be a far better world if we were as good as the airlines at losing baggage.

Peace,
Jardin

[Sher]

Today @ 12:28 PM post located here
Alien:

Oh yes, I'm sure this has worked for you in your marriage and I wasn't trying to be critical, just adding a small caveat.

Heh ... I didn't misunderstand you ... I was just soapboxing

See my response to Jardin. I really couldn't agree with you more. And I applaud your speaking out so well.

Thanks!

[JardinPrayer]

We're all getting along so nicely now...at least Sher, Alien, and me (or is it "I?")

I think Soc is sorta in the club, too.

It's nice in here suddenly.

[Epoetker]

Maybe not all stages...I did add caveats there. But it's something that rather seriously effects the rest of the relationship. Socrates got most of the point I was trying to make anyway. The pernicious combination of outright denial or a variable list of minimicrohints will Simply.Not.Work. (Well, the latter might work if you do that whole practice thing I mentioned.) Until then, para-psychic communication only works on God. Verbalizing the exact reason for ones desire or lack thereof works much better. It's often a little harder than one thinks, but once you get into the habit of it, you can resolve the problems much easier. And I'm unfortunately not privy to your husband's general attitude, so every piece of advice I'm going to be offering is geared toward the female end anyway.

As far as male ego fragility goes, it's pretty easy to avoid as long as:
1. Statement of problem-reolution-of problem-sex follows contiguously.
2. No criticism of permanent attributes or area you're not fully prepared to suffer the economic and social consequences of changing immediately.
3. Never, ever, ever, EVER give another excuse after the first one expires due to solution or evaporation. See 1, section on complete verbal exposition of reasons.

I know it's not how the female mind is used to thinking, and there's bound to be rather tiresome status reports("Ready now?" "No." "Ready now?" "No." "Ready now?") But this sort of farcical minor embarrassment on the way to recovery is a much better condition than slowly freezing to death or divorce. He'll eventuially listen, especially if he still thinks you're cute when exasperated.

[Sher]

Today @ 03:27 PM post located here
JardinPrayer:

We're all getting along so nicely now...at least Sher, Alien, and me (or is it "I?")

"I" ... I believe ... a given verb there at the end ("am" if just I ... "are" if all three names) ... but I stink at grammar ... that's why I use a great curriculum ... wanna give me a math question instead

I think Soc is sorta in the club, too.

It's nice in here suddenly.

Yeah ... I've enjoyed talking about this too

Epoetker, you're making my head hurt ... I'll come back to your post when I've waken up a bit more.

Sher

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 05:09 PM post located here
Sher:
Wanna give me a math question instead

If I were bright enough to come up with a math question, I would!

Epoetker, you're making my head hurt ... I'll come back to your post when I've waken up a bit more.

Yeah, I've gotta admit...he lost me there. I will say one thing that I think may be relevent to his post, though...one personal tidbit that I've been trying desperately to avoid in this thread:

If I try to explain patiently to my husband exactly what I would prefer in an intimate situation...to discuss it before we get into it so there's no misunderstanding or discomfort...he almost always whines, "Why do we have to talk about it all the time? Can't it just...flow?" My answer is almost invariably, "It can just flow when we don't have to talk about it any more."

Peace,
Jardin

[Epoetker]

Most excellent.

NOW we're getting somewhere. This is definitely the time to remind him that flow only comes with practice. Emphasize the practice aspect. Don't let up on it. Gently when you can, nag if you have to. If possible, try bringing up the practice at a time when he's not the one expecting or initiating it. Men tend to go for it when the women does unexpected things like that. But...next time he whines, tell him in no uncertain terms that the only way you WILL be able to go the extra mile with regard to quantity is if he stops ignoring you and proceeds to take steps toward quality. Make it clear that the willingness to follow his desires proceeds directly from his willingness to listen to you on the best way to go about it. This IS where his end of the deal comes up, and most definitely where he's gone wrong.

And let no other issue come between, around, or through the bargain, once understood. The trouble with the type of open-ended multi-sided 'contracts' like the frigidity/avoidance spiral is that attempts to mend them often get sidetracked into other domestic issues, these issues evolve into escalating rhetoric, these bouts of vitriol lead to domestic hatred, divorce, abuse, etc., ad nauseam.

Have faith. Have courage. Courage is the action of love, and prayer instills it in us when least expected.

[Sher]

Jardin,

I'd suggest open discussion when you are not in the midst of it as well. As I said before, communication is key. If you open dialog about many different things, and keep in mind that you have to be more "sensitive" to his emotional needs, it should be productive.

If he is frankly just one of those men who do not respond well to verbal suggestions ... seeing them all as "criticism" ... there are nonverbal ways you can learn to express yourself as well.

If you want more "details" from a female prespective, let's arrange a chat or PM session one evening or early morning. (We do have that chat room that rarely gets used). I'm not trying to be prudish ... just cautious. I'm trying to balance frankness with public forum here ... but feel free to pick my brain a bit more if you want.

Sher

[Sher]

Today @ 08:00 PM post located here
Epoetker:

And let no other issue come between, around, or through the bargain, once understood. The trouble with the type of open-ended multi-sided 'contracts' like the frigidity/avoidance spiral is that attempts to mend them often get sidetracked into other domestic issues

This point bears repeating!

It drives me nuts ... and I have been guilty of this as well, unfortunately ... when a convo about one thing degrades into a whine session about others. Stay on-topic if you want the point to be well seated!

[$cirisme]

/me bumps thread, not because of any content but because of a systems bug. Please ignore this post.