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Ex Cathedra Papal Statement and the Bible.

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  • #16
    You're Right Sparko there is a lot of room for something to be found fallible later. And reviewing history, it tends to speak for itself.
    Leo not so much ex cathedra, but the faith and morals thing.....
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #17
      Where does the idea that the Pope can be infallible in certain circumstances come from anyway?

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      • #18
        Probably from some pope several centuries ago.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Where does the idea that the Pope can be infallible in certain circumstances come from anyway?
          It was defined by the First Vatican Council in 1870 in the document Pastor Aeternus. As for the reasoning behind it, that bit of history is still the subject of some controversy. There were those who wanted Papal authority defined much more broadly than it was, but, in the end, defining Papal authority as properly limited to questions of faith and morals puts definitive constraints on the authority of the Pope, who prior to the nationalist revolutions of the 19th century had exercised some degree of immediate political authority, and one camp wanted the Council to assert that the Papal authority naturally included political matters. The Council ultimately disappointed this camp.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Probably from some pope several centuries ago.
            The push for a strong papacy actually came from Catholics in post-revolutionary countries who wanted a counter-balance to the aggressive secular regimes with which they were confronted.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              It was defined by the First Vatican Council in 1870 in the document Pastor Aeternus. As for the reasoning behind it, that bit of history is still the subject of some controversy. There were those who wanted Papal authority defined much more broadly than it was, but, in the end, defining Papal authority as properly limited to questions of faith and morals puts definitive constraints on the authority of the Pope, who prior to the nationalist revolutions of the 19th century had exercised some degree of immediate political authority, and one camp wanted the Council to assert that the Papal authority naturally included political matters. The Council ultimately disappointed this camp.
              So before 1870, popes were not considered to be infallible?

              Or are you saying that before 1870, Popes were considered infallible in all things but after 1870 only in questions of faith and morals?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                So before 1870, popes were not considered to be infallible?

                Or are you saying that before 1870, Popes were considered infallible in all things but after 1870 only in questions of faith and morals?
                Before 1870, people disagreed: that's why the Council felt the need to precisely define what exactly Papal authority was. There were those who thought he should exercising political authority (deposing princes and the like) as part of his authority as pope.
                Last edited by Spartacus; 04-10-2015, 11:05 AM. Reason: clarity
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  Probably from some pope several centuries ago.
                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  The push for a strong papacy actually came from Catholics in post-revolutionary countries who wanted a counter-balance to the aggressive secular regimes with which they were confronted.
                  There were earlier efforts to make claims upon the idea of papal infallibility and irreformability by early Franciscans who objected to later popes granting dispensations and privileges to more lax Franciscans. The more rigorist Franciscans claimed that later popes could not change the ruling of Pope Innocent III when he originally approved the rule of St Francis. So, in this case, it was not a pope making this claim; rather it was a third party that actually wanted to limit the power of a current pope in favor of a previous ruling by a deceased pope. Ultimately, the idea is traced back to interpretations of Mt 16; there are, of course, disputed interpretations of how Peter's role and that of his successors should be understood.
                  Last edited by robrecht; 04-10-2015, 01:07 PM.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    There were earlier efforts to make claims upon the idea of papal infallibility and irreformability by early Franciscans who objected to later popes granting dispensations and privileges to more lax Franciscans. The more rigorist Franciscans claimed that later popes could not change the ruling of Pope Innocent III when he originally approved the rule of St Francis. Ultimately, the idea is traced back to interpretations of Mt 16; there are, of course, disputed interpretations of how Peter's role and that of his successors should be understood.
                    So basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      So basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.
                      What robrecht said is that it was first argued by Franciscans who didn't want the Franciscan way of life (and therefore witness to the Gospel) toned down and diluted. It wasn't decided by them, and their definition of infallibility is definitely not the version approved in 1870.
                      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        So basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.
                        As is always the case, in all matters, both within and outside of the church.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          So basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.
                          That statement carries no more strength than questioning the infallibility of the Bible's authority, because it was written by fallible men for personal reasons. The question is whether the Holy Spirit intervened in this process, to ensure that there be no error of doctrine. That's a question ultimately about whether there is such a thing as Apostolic Succession. If there is then when the bishops exercise their full authority, and teach dogmatically, it must be infallible, if not then the Church is neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            Before 1870, people disagreed: that's why the Council felt the need to precisely define what exactly Papal authority was. There were those who thought he should exercising political authority (deposing princes and the like) as part of his authority as pope.
                            In 1870, people vehemently disagreed as well. There were accusations of the dogma being ramrodded through while not all members of the opposition were present, IIRC. It seems the West has no mechanism for dealing with another Latrocinium.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                            • #29
                              The decision limited papal authority as well in making any political decisions. More or less the papacy was now effectively relegated only to the church instead of being a political authority. In modern eyes it looks awful but going back to Europe in 1870 it probably made a lot of political sense to the authorities of other countries. They could now decide on their own what to do. However it doesn't mean it was right. It just denotes a shift in European idea of whose in charge over what.
                              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                              George Bernard Shaw

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                              • #30
                                Hans King has not given up on this discussion:

                                http://ncronline.org/news/theology/i...s-pope-francis
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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