Derail thread on Mary

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[Catholicity]

Exactly, which is why I was rather nonplussed that Leonhard would deny it, and chalked it up to his relative newness to Catholicism .

Paprika there is absolutely no reason for you to attempt to pick a fight with Leo. Show some restraint. If you want to pick fights I am sure we have atheists in apo 301 who are happy to oblige.

[Paprika]

Paprika there is absolutely no reason for you to attempt to pick a fight with Leo. Show some restraint. If you want to pick fights I am sure we have atheists in apo 301 who are happy to oblige.

Buzz off.

[Leonhard]

Buzz off.

Not cool.

[Paprika]

Not cool.

I couldn't care less how you regard it.

[Bill the Cat]

I couldn't care less how you regard it.

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

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Cool it or leave this thread.

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[One Bad Pig]

Why? [It is still a perceived issue to some. It needs to be shown that it cannot be necromancy.]

Necromancy is about using incantations/magic to coerce a conversation with the dead (or to compel the dead to do various things, which is even less relevant). Prayer to the saints has nothing of the magical about it, is not coercion, and is not an attempt to have a conversation. It is merely a request for intercession made to the dead in faith that it will be heard and acted on. Calling that necromancy is no more than polemics.

Asking prayer from living persons is not the same as asking them that sleep, that is asking them who who are dead waiting their resurrection from the dead.

God is not the God of the dead, but the living.

[Rushing Jaws]

Sorry. To say that any person plays any sort of role in our salvation is error.

She was the human vessel to carry the Saviour, but she needed Him the same as anybody else. She is blessed because of her willingness to obey God in this, but should not be venerated as she has been by the Catholics and Orthodox.

This is an unreconcilable point that can't be bridged by any ecumenism.

Jesus Christ, Who is man, is not a person ? Salvation is intimately personal, which is why persons save persons. The Bible can only do what the Law is described as doing in Romans 7 - it can only condemn. For salvation (including salvation from the bondage of the Bible), persons are needed.

Mary is not venerated nearly enough. To talk of her as a vessel is horribly demeaning - it's de-humanising, no different from calling people "elements". It is beyond belief that some people honour dead politicians (who may be damned, for all that all anyone knows, which means they are enemies of Christ) while making a scruple of honouring the Mother of God whom, through His angel, God Himself calls "Blessed among women".

[mossrose]

Jesus Christ, Who is man, is not a person ? Salvation is intimately personal, which is why persons save persons. The Bible can only do what the Law is described as doing in Romans 7 - it can only condemn. For salvation (including salvation from the bondage of the Bible), persons are needed.

I was excepting Christ. The Bible is not bondage. It is God's word, presenting the law of God, and pointing to the ONLY way to salvation, Christ. If you feel bondage to God's word, then perhaps you need to rethink whether or not you have salvation.

Mary is not venerated nearly enough. To talk of her as a vessel is horribly demeaning - it's de-humanising, no different from calling people "elements". It is beyond belief that some people honour dead politicians (who may be damned, for all that all anyone knows, which means they are enemies of Christ) while making a scruple of honouring the Mother of God whom, through His angel, God Himself calls "Blessed among women".

Mary was a servant of God. She had a special place in history. I do not dishonour her by calling her a vessel. I just do not worship her. Only the triune God is worthy of worship.

And for the record, I don't venerate any dead politicians or any other dead person, for that matter.

[Bisto]

Mary, the saints, ancient Jews and Christians

Hello! I'm not sure whether I should post this here or on the "Mary Mother of God" thread... but I'll do it here.

I read this thread (and a couple others related) the other day and, as an Evangelical, I must thank all Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brethren for explaining how they understand Marian devotion, veneration of the saints, etc. I didn't previously know how you guys looked at this stuff, only how my Evangelical brethren make it look when asked (some of them raised RCC), but now it kind of makes sense to me how you arrive to such conclusions. Nonetheless, I still find it odd about those who would pray more to Mary than to God/Jesus/Spirit, or otherwise dedicate more time to their veneration than to Him, etc.


On these topics, I have the following broad questions: what do you think the 1st century church would say on these practices? Would a prison-bound Paul pray to Stephen to intercede for him and the Church? Would he support Christians asking the Patriarchs to intercede for them rather than praying to God? After Mary passed away (or was assumed to heaven, if that's what you believe happened to her), would a John approve of lay Christians directing their prayers at Mary, or giving her the level of devotion she gets nowadays in some places? etc.


And on a more historical side: Do we have evidence of 1st Century Jews directing similar veneration, prayer, etc. to the Patriarchs for example? e.g. praying to Abraham to intercede before God on their behalf or something like that? From what we know, would their "polemically strict monotheism", so to describe it, see such ideas favorably?

(I know it's been explained how this shouldn't be confused with idolatry, but it has also been pointed out that some lay Catholics do bring it to the point of worshipping Mary, in their own words. Some older sisters in my Church who came out of the RCC see these practices in a very negative light to this day... and it'd be interesting to consider how ancient Jews and the first Christians would have looked at it.)


I'm already thinking that for the 1st Century Jews, maybe one could say they didn't have this "Body dynamic" that was true for the Church, and from what I've seen in posts in this thread, this is seen as the heart of asking brethren who have passed away to intercede on behalf of the earth-bound Church. But still, I'd like to see your thoughts on this, and whatever historical evidence could shed light on what the ancient Christians would have thought about the practices that stem from said line of thought.


Thanks in advance for your replies!

Isaac.

[Faber]

And on a more historical side: Do we have evidence of 1st Century Jews directing similar veneration, prayer, etc. to the Patriarchs for example? e.g. praying to Abraham to intercede before God on their behalf or something like that?

You got the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:1-31), but the rich man was already dead and it didn't get him anywhere.

[One Bad Pig]

Hello! I'm not sure whether I should post this here or on the "Mary Mother of God" thread... but I'll do it here.

I read this thread (and a couple others related) the other day and, as an Evangelical, I must thank all Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brethren for explaining how they understand Marian devotion, veneration of the saints, etc. I didn't previously know how you guys looked at this stuff, only how my Evangelical brethren make it look when asked (some of them raised RCC), but now it kind of makes sense to me how you arrive to such conclusions. Nonetheless, I still find it odd about those who would pray more to Mary than to God/Jesus/Spirit, or otherwise dedicate more time to their veneration than to Him, etc.

From my Orthodox experience, it would be unusual for someone to do so.

On these topics, I have the following broad questions: what do you think the 1st century church would say on these practices? Would a prison-bound Paul pray to Stephen to intercede for him and the Church? Would he support Christians asking the Patriarchs to intercede for them rather than praying to God? After Mary passed away (or was assumed to heaven, if that's what you believe happened to her), would a John approve of lay Christians directing their prayers at Mary, or giving her the level of devotion she gets nowadays in some places? etc.

It's not easy to tell, given our paucity of sources from the time period. It is certainly possible to show Mary excessive devotion, and I'm sure John would not approve of that.

And on a more historical side: Do we have evidence of 1st Century Jews directing similar veneration, prayer, etc. to the Patriarchs for example? e.g. praying to Abraham to intercede before God on their behalf or something like that? From what we know, would their "polemically strict monotheism", so to describe it, see such ideas favorably?

(I know it's been explained how this shouldn't be confused with idolatry, but it has also been pointed out that some lay Catholics do bring it to the point of worshipping Mary, in their own words. Some older sisters in my Church who came out of the RCC see these practices in a very negative light to this day... and it'd be interesting to consider how ancient Jews and the first Christians would have looked at it.)

Interestingly, there is some evidence that Jews of the time may have prayed to angels and departed saints, asking them to intercede before the Lord.

Source: Prayers of Jews to Angels and Other Intermediaries during the First Centuries of the Common Era

Just how commonplace the appeal to angels was is demonstrated by a baraita in BT Ber 60b (Dereh Eretz 11; Kalla Rabbati 9:13):

On entering a privy one should say: ‘Be honoured, ye honoured and holy ones the minister to the Most High. Give honour to the God of Israel. Wait for me till I enter and do my needs, and I return to you’.[38]

Presumably, then, several times in the course of an ordinary day, a Jew would turn to angels and ask them not to accompany him to the privy. This custom, too, was later abolished because of objections to praying to angels....

Since contact with the dead was considered to contaminate the living, in Biblical times, as in the tannaitic period, there were some people who took care not to be rendered impure in this way.[50] However, the gradual disappearance of the laws of purity and impurity enabled the people to begin to visit graves and solicit the help of the deceased. This practice is first related by Rava in Babylon, according to whom the spies went up to Hebron to prostrate themselves on the graves of the patriarchs (BT Sot 34b).[52] Similarly, one of the Palestinian Amoraim of the third century believed in visiting cemeteries on fast days, ‘so that the dead shall plead for mercy on us’ (BT Taan 16a).

© Copyright Original Source

Even today, Jewish prayer invokes angels:

On returning home from services on Friday night, it is customary to sing to the “Shabbat Angels.” Before going to sleep, the bedtime prayers include a prayer for protection by the fours archangels: “To my right Michael and to my left Gabriel, in front of me Uriel and behind me Raphael, and over my head God’s presence.” So, too, many recite the words of Genesis 48:16 before going to sleep: “May the angel who redeems me from all evil, bless the children, and let my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and let them flourish like fish for multitude in the midst of the land.” The Yom Kippur liturgy makes extensive mention of angels.

I'm already thinking that for the 1st Century Jews, maybe one could say they didn't have this "Body dynamic" that was true for the Church, and from what I've seen in posts in this thread, this is seen as the heart of asking brethren who have passed away to intercede on behalf of the earth-bound Church. But still, I'd like to see your thoughts, on this and whatever historical evidence could shed light on what the ancient Christians would have thought about the practices that stem from said line of thought.

I know that by the mid-2nd century, the early church was venerating martyrs (see The Martyrdom of Polycarp), but it's hard to say how or when that developed. If Jewish prayers of intercession to the departed holy ones go back that far, then martyrs may well have been invoked by the church from the beginning.

[robrecht]

... Nonetheless, I still find it odd about those who would pray more to Mary than to God/Jesus/Spirit, or otherwise dedicate more time to their veneration than to Him, etc. ...

Hi, Isaac. Has anyone here been defending the practice of praying more to Mary than to God???

[Adrift]

Hi, Isaac. Has anyone here been defending the practice of praying more to Mary than to God???

Anecdotally, it does appear to be the case among the lay Catholics I know. It's only online that I typically find a more robust understanding of prayer among Catholics, but that's usually true for all those Christians I come into contact with on websites like these where the typical poster is often a bit more interested/involved in the faith than your average pew sitter.

[Bisto]

Faber:
Yeah, I thought that example didn't really count, for the reasons you state


OBP:
Thank you!! I'll look into those articles.

I assume there is a difference between angels and departed saints in the examples you quote...? (maybe it's just MY impression.) From my understanding, angels are to minister to God's people (as in Hebr. 1), and If I recall correctly, in Rev. 5 they implicitly serve as "carriers" of prayer (in the "incense" passage). I also remember some psalms where angels' presence or action is requested, commended, etc.

In my Church, I can remember times when a pastor or prophet asked the Lord for angelic presence and support, and a few times commanding them in the context of spiritual warfare, and a few times when some brother or sister had visions concerning angels, but not much otherwise...

In Jacob's words in particular, I had come to understand that the Angel he talks about in Gen. 48 is the Angel of YHWH / pre-incarnate Son, so I infer that when Jews repeat Jacob's prayer about "that" angel in particular, they'd be referring to the one who was God's manifestation Himself.

So in summary, is the distinction between angels and departed saints evident, blurred or non-existent in the context of angelic references?

(I'm checking the examples on the Patriarchs and Matriarchs. Very interesting!)


Robrecht:
Hello! From what I read, nobody has postulated that here, and I assume you would be against such idea. Nonetheless, as Adrift has mentioned, it is an attitude one can find elsewhere. I didn't bring it up as "well poisoning" or anything of that sort ;)...

I think someone posted in this thread before that one gets concerned over people who misunderstand this stuff and end up doing what they shouldn't, though I understand this is also true of teachings all Christians would agree about (e.g. the Trinity).


Adrift:
That's what I was thinking . I would say something similar in a broader sense, not only about Catholics I've met vs. Catholics on sites like this one, but more generally about Christians I've met vs. Christians on sites like this one.


All:
Thanks again for your replies!!